PlaymoFriends
General => News => Topic started by: Martin Milner on August 07, 2008, 14:59:29
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OK, I've got loads of books on the subject but I'm still not entirely clear (i.e. I can't be bothered to read and assimilate them all), and I know in Timotheos and Justindo we have at least two people working on creating a Roman Army Unit.
So I want (as a start) to create a century - 80 men shouldn't be too many to put on my tabletop, and should look pretty impressive. I've got nearly 40 legoinnaires already, and probably more officer types than I need.
Then assume I'm creating the necessary command structure for a full Legion ('cos I can cheat and use the same century many times), how many of what?
Can you guys show me in simple Martin-is-a-lazy-doofus terms, exactly how many of each figure I should assemble, equip, and what rank/position each one represents?
e.g. Century:
80x 30 00 2682 legionary - silver helmet, pilum, shield, gladius
3x 30 00 2692 standard bearers, iron helmet with bear/wolfskin, round shield, standard, gladius
1x 30 00 2702 Optio - silver helm with tranverse white crest, oval shield, pilum & gladius
1x 30 00 2702 Centurion - silver helm with tranverse red crest, oval shield, pilum & gladius
how many archers? other troop types? Or do they not fit in a regular Century?
Extra Legion Staff
1x 30 00 2722 Tribune - Gold helmet, red front to back crest, gold gladius
6x 30 00 2722 Tribune - Gold helmet, white front to back crest, silver gladius
1x 30 00 2712 mounted messanger, silver helmet, gladius, oval shield
etc.
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OK, I found in the "Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284" by Rosss Cowan the sort of structure I'm looking for.
1 Century =
80 legionnaries (divided into ten groups of 8 who share a tent)
1 Centurion (duh)
1 Optio (2nd in command)
1 Tesserarius (aids the Optio)
1 Signifer (carries the standard)
1 Cornicen or Bucinator (relays commans from the general to the century)
1 Cohort = 6 Centuries except Cohort 1 which contained 5 centuries of double strength
1 Legion = 9 regular cohorts + the double strength cohort
The Legion commanded by:
1 Legate
6 Tribunes
Also attached to a legion:
120 cavalry
other auxiliary units (e.g. archers)
I think that's about it.
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Oh is that all you need
1 legion =930 + 7 commanders + 120 + lets just say 100 archers
So martin as soon as you put together the 1157 klickies and get them all to stand i would love to see pictures . ;D
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Oh is that all you need
1 legion =930 + 7 commanders + 120 + lets just say 100 archers
So martin as soon as you put together the 1157 klickies and get them all to stand i would love to see pictures . ;D
No, a Legion is nearer 5-6,000 men all told - you missed a step. ;D
1 Legion = 10 Cohorts + auxiliary units
1 Cohort = 6 Centuries
Which is a whole Legion is well beyond my means (at £2 a klicky in the UK usually), but a representative Century of 85 men, plus the command structure of a Legion, plus some auxiliary units (say 20 cavalry, 20 archers, some siege engineers) is financially possible - and will fit on my display table.
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Well, there is already a Playmo-Legion on its way through Germany.... ;)
http://www.klickywelt.de/viewtopic.php?t=27268
http://www.museen-aalen.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=53844&_bereich=1599#
It about 5.500 strong. thats a table-top to really impress the neighbors... :D
best,
socrates
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yeah.. i seen that picture too .. weeks ago and that kind of stuff b to playmobil at all.. after nearly 20 years without!
but i wont do those thigs as i cant afford and i dont have place for it.. but those stuff would be amazing for a convention!
lol
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OK, I found in the "Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284" by Rosss Cowan the sort of structure I'm looking for.
1 Century =
80 legionnaries (divided into ten groups of 8 who share a tent)
1 Centurion (duh)
1 Optio (2nd in command)
1 Tesserarius (aids the Optio)
1 Signifer (carries the standard)
1 Cornicen or Bucinator (relays commans from the general to the century)
1 Cohort = 6 Centuries except Cohort 1 which contained 5 centuries of double strength
1 Legion = 9 regular cohorts + the double strength cohort
The Legion commanded by:
1 Legate
6 Tribunes
Also attached to a legion:
120 cavalry
other auxiliary units (e.g. archers)
I think that's about it.
I'm always glad to see more Roman talk on the forums!
You're right on with your legion numbers, Martin!
Auxiliary units were technically independent of the legions. Their primary role was to perform guard duty on the Roman frontiers, however when a legion or legions went on a large campaign the auxiliary units would usually accompany them, as they provided the troop types (e.g. cavalry, archers, and light infantry) that the legion lacked. (The 120 cavalrymen in each legion were used more for light scouting and messenger duties than for combat.) The largest auxiliary unit group was the cohort, which was commanded by a Prefect, who was similar to a Legionary Tribune and was a Roman citizen of Equestrian (upper middle class to upper class) status. (The Romans didn't want these predominantly native, non-citizen auxiliary troops to be in groups too large just in case they rebelled against Rome. That said, emperors ran, and often faced, the very same risk with their citizen legions!) Infantry and archer cohort structure mimicked their legionary counterparts, however cavalry cohort structure was different.
Each cavalry cohort consisted of 16 turmae with 30 men in each turma. Each turma was commanded by a decurio (sort of like a centurion) and a duplicarius (sort of like an optio). There would also be a signifier carrying a dragon standard and a cornicen in each turma. (As with centuries, it's unclear if, other than the centurion/decurio, the officers from each turma were in addition to or included in the 30 number). In addition to infantry, archer, and cavalry cohorts of normal size (480 plus officers), there were also larger cohorts fielded by the Romans, although these were somewhat rare, and also mixed infantry and cavalry cohorts, which were actually very common.
It is, however, important to emphasize that all these numbers are simply paper numbers. In reality, a legion or cohort could easily be at half its paper strength due to deaths without replenishment, illnesses, or men performing other duties.
Instead of replicating legions, cohorts, centuries, or turmae, including their multitude of officers, to the exact number, I've elected to form representative units with my Playmobil Romans. For example, my infantry "centuries" include 20 men plus a centurion, signifier, and cornicen. My cavalry "turmae" include 10 men plus a decurio and a signifier. I have one legionary "cohort" (6 legionary "centuries"), one Praetorian "cohort (6 Praetorian "centuries"), and one mixed auxiliary "cohort" (2 light infantry centuries, 2 Hamain archer centuries, and 2 cavalry turmae). Although this type of force (three cohorts with five different troop types) would probably never have been fielded, it is representative of the type of large force that would be fielded for an invasion and it gives a a nice cross-section of Playmobil troop types.
Playmobil has produced far too many officer types in proportion to the men, but that's okay, as I've found a use for all of them.
Below are descriptions of my officers. Here's a link to see the figures I'm referring to: http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/klicky_theme.pl?theme=Romans
Figure 2672 is my Emperor on campaign. He has a purple cape, a gold gladius, a gold helmet with a white crest, and he rides on a white horse with gold barding.
Figures 2852 (I have two of them) are members of the Emperor's military staff. Both have white crests, gold gladiae, black capes and their horses have gold barding. One has a black helmet and rides a black horse while the other has a gold helmet and rides a white horse.
Figure 2722 is my Legate. He has a gold helmet with a white crest, a red cape, a gold gladius, and he rides on a white horse with red barding.
Figure 2732 is my Praetorian Prefect. He has a gold helmet with a white crest, a gold gladius, a light blue cape, and he rides on a white horse with light blue barding.
Figures 2862 (I have two of them) are my Tribunes. Both have red crests and silver gladiae. One has a black cape with a silver helmet and rides a black horse with silver barding. The other has a red cape with a black helmet and rides a dark grey horse with red barding.
Figure 2892 is my Auxiliary Cohort Prefect. He has a silver helmet with a red crest, a silver gladius, and he rides a tan horse with red barding.
I hope to post pictures of all my Romans within the month!
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Well, there is already a Playmo-Legion on its way through Germany.... ;)
http://www.klickywelt.de/viewtopic.php?t=27268
http://www.museen-aalen.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=53844&_bereich=1599#
It about 5.500 strong. thats a table-top to really impress the neighbors... :D
best,
socrates
EDIT: looks like Justin and I posted simultaneously... chronologically, I'd meant for him to go second after correcting my mistakes!
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That legion is conceptually impressive, especially considering it came before Playmobil produced the enhanced full theme.
But the legion suffers some problems--the average soldier in an imperial legion didn't wear crested helms. Later that army is presented on the march with donkeys following each century. baggage was clustered toward the center rear of the army with legions in front and behind.
To Martin:
If you haven't yet, I'd recommend picking a target period for your army (it sounds like you have chosen late 2nd century, a pretty good time--Justin has argued that PM has the look of that period.
As for paper strengths--you don't have to honor that. Cavalry, for example, frequently rode out understrength, including, in rare cases, men riding mules (roman horses were smaller then, and mules could keep trot with horses, just not gallop as fast).
Unfortunately, I don't have any figures for auxiliary compared to citizens. Your horse estimate sounds good. Foot auxiliary must have outnumbered foot legionnaires. But whether a legion had a quota of archers or slingers or spearmen or light skirmishers I don't know. Something nobody here has really modeled are Balearic slingers. They could basically be the shepherd from the nativity scene wearing a baby-sling filled with stones.
There was also an auxiliary unit called the equitata. Horsemen and infantry mixed. These were probably ethnicly germans or gauls (they trained to run with trotting cavalry). Scholars have trouble figuring out whether Camp X was a pure cavalry unit or an equitata unit.
Don't forget the artillery. According to Graham Webster's "The Roman Army", each cohort traveled with one artillery piece hauled by wagon (10 per legion). Whether he means an onager or a scorpion I don't know. Probably a scorpion and its ammunition.
Also there were different shades of cavalry. Light scouts (spear and javelins, avoided melee). And heavy cavalry (they charged into the fray with lances (spears)). Cataphractii entered the army later, but probably past the time of Playmobil's representation, when Rome was investing more in cavalry than infantry.
But to give you a generic legion:
80 legionairres with one (or two) javelins each
1 centurion (carried a vine staff for discipline)[equated to a sergeant major but I'd say company commander]
1 optio (carried a long staff for swatting laggers; I've seen him in forward plume with feather on each side)
1 standard bearer (who also managed treasury and soldier accounts)
1 tessarius (training officer -- don't know what he looked like)
I don't know whether each century had a cornicern but it makes sense. centuries continued to administratively fall into maniples (two century unit) but they didn't fight as maniples. in equitata units, the maniple = one century of infantry and one of cavalry). The optio, signifier, and tessarius were immunes--sort of like sergeants.
Each tent group had I think a wagon for their tent and one donkey. The centurion had at least one horse, maybe three and his own donkey.
Cavalry lance (correct?) the smallest cavalry unit
30 men
1 decurion (centurion)--his helmet differed from regular centurion; use your ingenuity)
1 secundum (2nd in command)
1 tertium (3rd in command)
I don't know whether secundum or tertium also doubled as standard bearer / musician. It seems that one of them would, since signifiers had special privileges and rank.
As for rehorsings--
Decurion had three horses, secundum two horses, and I think the tertium also had a spare.
The regular men apparently rode with no change of horses, and this is one reason maybe why the cavalry units often ran short. Augustus Caesar purported fielded a 500 man strong unit of cavlary that had no horses! and fought as infantry.
Cavalry were administered differently than infantry. But my memory is fuzzy. Ala ("wing") was the largest division. What the 120 men unit (four companies) was called, I can't remember.
Maybe Justin will weigh in and clarify some of my mistakes. There's a great cavalry source book out there but I don't feel like digging the book out of the basement....
-Tim
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PS. No comment as to why both Justin and I are monitoring the forum on a Friday night.
Granted, I'm not completely convinced of the moral superiority of randomly going somewhere just for the sake of saying one did something Friday night.
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EDIT: looks like Justin and I posted simultaneously... chronologically, I'd meant for him to go second after correcting my mistakes!
If you haven't yet, I'd recommend picking a target period for your army (it sounds like you have chosen late 2nd century, a pretty good time--Justin has argued that PM has the look of that period.
As for paper strengths--you don't have to honor that. Cavalry, for example, frequently rode out understrength, including, in rare cases, men riding mules (roman horses were smaller then, and mules could keep trot with horses, just not gallop as fast).
Unfortunately, I don't have any figures for auxiliary compared to citizens. Your horse estimate sounds good. Foot auxiliary must have outnumbered foot legionnaires. But whether a legion had a quota of archers or slingers or spearmen or light skirmishers I don't know. Something nobody here has really modeled are Balearic slingers. They could basically be the shepherd from the nativity scene wearing a baby-sling filled with stones.
There was also an auxiliary unit called the equitata. Horsemen and infantry mixed. These were probably ethnicly germans or gauls (they trained to run with trotting cavalry). Scholars have trouble figuring out whether Camp X was a pure cavalry unit or an equitata unit.
Don't forget the artillery. According to Graham Webster's "The Roman Army", each cohort traveled with one artillery piece hauled by wagon (10 per legion). Whether he means an onager or a scorpion I don't know. Probably a scorpion and its ammunition.
Also there were different shades of cavalry. Light scouts (spear and javelins, avoided melee). And heavy cavalry (they charged into the fray with lances (spears)). Cataphractii entered the army later, but probably past the time of Playmobil's representation, when Rome was investing more in cavalry than infantry.
But to give you a generic legion:
80 legionairres with one (or two) javelins each
1 centurion (carried a vine staff for discipline)[equated to a sergeant major but I'd say company commander]
1 optio (carried a long staff for swatting laggers; I've seen him in forward plume with feather on each side)
1 standard bearer (who also managed treasury and soldier accounts)
1 tessarius (training officer -- don't know what he looked like)
I don't know whether each century had a cornicern but it makes sense. centuries continued to administratively fall into maniples (two century unit) but they didn't fight as maniples. in equitata units, the maniple = one century of infantry and one of cavalry). The optio, signifier, and tessarius were immunes--sort of like sergeants.
Each tent group had I think a wagon for their tent and one donkey. The centurion had at least one horse, maybe three and his own donkey.
Cavalry lance (correct?) the smallest cavalry unit
30 men
1 decurion (centurion)--his helmet differed from regular centurion; use your ingenuity)
1 secundum (2nd in command)
1 tertium (3rd in command)
I don't know whether secundum or tertium also doubled as standard bearer / musician. It seems that one of them would, since signifiers had special privileges and rank.
As for rehorsings--
Decurion had three horses, secundum two horses, and I think the tertium also had a spare.
The regular men apparently rode with no change of horses, and this is one reason maybe why the cavalry units often ran short. Augustus Caesar purported fielded a 500 man strong unit of cavlary that had no horses! and fought as infantry.
Cavalry were administered differently than infantry. But my memory is fuzzy. Ala ("wing") was the largest division. What the 120 men unit (four companies) was called, I can't remember.
Maybe Justin will weigh in and clarify some of my mistakes. There's a great cavalry source book out there but I don't feel like digging the book out of the basement....
-Tim
Sorry for posting first, Tim! Had I known you were simultaneously posting, I would have waited. ;)
In my opinion, the Playmobil Romans, taken as a whole, are distinctly AD Romans who could be from the early to mid 1st to early to mid 3rd century (i.e. the height of the empire), so 150 AD sounds just about perfect.
Regarding the slingers that Tim mentions, while they were very popular in Republican times, just like velites, they began to have a diminished role prior to Caesar and were virtually nonexistent during Imperial times. Archers were far more effective and as Rome conquered more and more peoples, and archers could swell the auxiliary ranks.
While mixed (horse and foot) auxiliary cohorts were very common, I did not know that the infantry were required to run along with the cavalry. That's very interesting, Tim.
I'd forgotten to address artillery, but Tim has done a great job of that. Each century was responsible for a light and fairly portable Scorpion (the bolt throwers that Playmobil has in some of the Roman sets). Two men from each century manned it. Each cohort would have a much larger catapult (a large version of the Scorpion that would throw a large bolt or round stone) and would assign one man from each century to man it for a total of six. The catapult would travel in pieces in a wagon. (The Scorpion traveled in pieces also, probably by wagon too, but possibly by mule.) I use the Playmobil onager, however, in place of the catapult, as a Playmobil catapult is not available. Onagers did exist, but they were more on the legionary rather than the cohort level. They were used mostly in sieges and weren't as portable or common as the catapult until later in the Empire.
As Tim mentions, there were different types of Roman cavalry, and the type usually depended upon the ethnicity of the unit. All my Playmobil cavalry are of the heavy Gallic/German/Thracian type, however Tim has created some great Numidian (light) cavalry. (See his post on Hadrian's column in the Custom section.)
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PS. No comment as to why both Justin and I are monitoring the forum on a Friday night.
Granted, I'm not completely convinced of the moral superiority of randomly going somewhere just for the sake of saying one did something Friday night.
Gee, Tim, thanks for making me feel bad for posting on this forum on a Friday night! As I write this on the sofa with my wife and dog, my wife is rolling her eyes at me telling me to get off the computer while my dog is pleading with me to feed him.
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Thanks for the comprehensive replies guys, I was starting to wonder if I'd been too lazy asking for your help!
I like Justindo's "representative unit" idea, I think this is very much in the spirit of Playmobil, and will adopt it. A 20 man century sounds very good, and I'll adopt that standard. 20 Klickies lined up in a 4x5 formation looks pretty impressive. You missed the Optio and Tessarius Justindo, but maybe that makes it too officer-heavy.
I will eventually have the klickies to create four 20 man centuries, which will combine to be one Legion. I'll attach 5 cavalry and 5 archers to each century, and have a Centurion (red transverse crest & cloak), Optio (white transverse crest & cloak), Tessarius (probably same as Optio), Signifer and Cornicern for each. My reading suggests that each century had more then one Standard bearer, but that would probably make things look too Standard heavy. That'll make 35 klickies, not counting horses, and one wagon for baggage, for each Century.
My Officers of Centurion rank and below will carry a round shield, and cavalry an oval shield and long spear.
My units will be based around 180-200 AD, in Britain, not sure if it'll be besed on an actul known Roman unit, but there's plenty of choices available. I've done one Hadrian's wall story, and when I've dug out the wall sections, a small length of Hadrian's wall (or Londinium's wall) would look good as a background.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9479modified.jpg)
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9481.jpg)
Pictures of my Centuries so far - I split my 24 Legionnaires into 2 centuries of 12 for now, as I had enough officers, but they'll mass up to 20 men each when they arrive in a couple of weeks.
I'm not sure if the Centurion should have a spear, pilum, or just his rod of office. The Optios at the back are keeping the men in line with spears, but I could cut the points off to make staffs.
I'll need to make another spares order to get the Red transverse crests for 2 more centurions-
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I like Justindo's "representative unit" idea, I think this is very much in the spirit of Playmobil, and will adopt it. A 20 man century sounds very good, and I'll adopt that standard. 20 Klickies lined up in a 4x5 formation looks pretty impressive. You missed the Optio and Tessarius Justindo, but maybe that makes it too officer-heavy.
I will eventually have the klickies to create four 20 man centuries, which will combine to be one Legion. I'll attach 5 cavalry and 5 archers to each century, and have a Centurion (red transverse crest & cloak), Optio (white transverse crest & cloak), Tessarius (probably same as Optio), Signifer and Cornicern for each. My reading suggests that each century had more then one Standard bearer, but that would probably make things look too Standard heavy. That'll make 35 klickies, not counting horses, and one wagon for baggage, for each Century.
My Officers of Centurion rank and below will carry a round shield, and cavalry an oval shield and long spear.
My units will be based around 180-200 AD, in Britain, not sure if it'll be besed on an actul known Roman unit, but there's plenty of choices available. I've done one Hadrian's wall story, and when I've dug out the wall sections, a small length of Hadrian's wall (or Londinium's wall) would look good as a background.
Twenty men is a perfectly sized Playmobil "century" in my opinion as it is exactly one fourth the size of an actual Roman century, so the men can be deployed in a variety of realistic ways (e.g. a line of ten men two deep, a line of five men four deep, and a line of four men five deep). Twenty men looks respectable enough while not being too numerous to move.
As you surmise, Martin, I chose only to have the centurion (red transverse crest and red cape), signifier, and cornicen because I didn't want to bother with so many officers for a twenty man unit.
Your overall army plan sounds great, Martin! Four legionary "centuries" (I assume you'll use the legionaries with the lorica segmentata plate armor?) plus officers and one "century" each of archers and cavalry will be quite the sight. Perhaps you might consider including one "century" of auxiliary infantry (the klickies with the chain mail) and one "century" of Praetorians (the blue Special Roman klicky) just for fun and variety.
Will you be using a large two horse, two axle wagon or a smaller one horse, one axle cart for each century? Either one would work fine, in my opinion. I personally elected to give each of my "centuries" one mule and each of my "cohorts" one covered wagon (sans cover) from the Western set. While oxen would be historically correct for pulling the wagons, acquiring them from DS has been impossible and hitching them up without the proper Playmobil parts is a pain, so I'll use horses and say it's a "flying column" of Romans. ;) Of course to be historically correct I should also use far more mules, but I don't want the baggage train to be too large.
Have you thought about artillery? How about your higher ranking officers?
The only suggestion I have is that if you want to have an optio and a tessarius, I'd use a regular front to back crest, as only centurions wore transverse crests.
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Well, Justindo and Timotheos, thanks for that even though I'm not collecting the Roman theme - very interesting and very informative. And thanks for the photos of your burgeoning legions, Martin, and asking for advice.
I think the "representative unit" is spot-on, and just the right combination of having the look of what you're wanting to achieve while being manageable for photostories and setting up displays.
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Hi Justindo,
I thought I'd seen a picture of an Optio with a transverse crest, but now you say it I can't find it. Should the Optio have a crest at all? I can easily give him a plain helmet.
Of course that'll leave me with a bunch of spare transverse crests, unless I can use them for Centurions in charge of the Archers, Cavalry and siege engines.
I'm already building a century of Praetorians as it happens, I've got eleven I can lay my hands on, and another 9 on the way.
I've only got one of the large covered wagons so far, so the rest of the baggage train will be the single horse 2 wheeled carts that Fletcher drives.
The chainmail guys may also end up with their own unit, or they may man the siege engines.
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Nice pictures, Martin! You're well on your way to having a great Roman army!
Optios wore two single feathers, one on each side of their helmet. That, however, might be hard to replicate with Playmobil. I've seen other people use either a white or red front to back crest to designate the optio and this looks fine. Of course giving the optio a regular helmet would be fine too and, arguably, more historically accurate but perhaps not as fun. The Tessarius wore no distinguishing features on his helmet, so you can keep his plain and that would be historically correct. You could use your extra centurion crests and capes, perhaps the white ones, for the four centurions to command your Praetorians, archers, auxiliary infantry, and artillery troops. (My Praetorian centurions wear white capes and white transverse crests.) For your cavalry decurion, I'd recommend using the yellow front to back crest, as that's typically what cavalry decurions wore.
Regarding what the centurions should carry, I've debated that with myself a lot. Right now my centurions have nothing, except for their gladius and parma (round) shield, but a vine staff (perhaps part #30 22 8660) would be an appropriate addition. I haven't read about any centurion carrying a pilum, but it is possible. The optio would probably have a pilum while the Tessarius would carry a long wooden staff with a large wooden knot on the end (perhaps part # 30 20 7850) for keeping the battle line straight from the rear.
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Thanks Justin for the follow up--
My only small point of contention--
Your explanation of the tessarius carrying the staff with knob contradicts what I'd heard about the optio being responsible for keeping the rear in order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optio
Wikipedia posts a photo of a reenactor playing an optio.
The tessarius on the other is poorly documented in my books. Example: Graham Webster's detailed classic ("The Roman Imperial Army") only gives a couple of lines about him overseeing training.
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RE: Equitata
The germans were purported to field horse units in which infantry ran with the horseman. I've read two interpretations of how this worked.
Option 1) The infantry assisted the horsemen on the march like squires. In battle, they loitered in the rear and covered the horsemen's retreat (horse battles tended to involve a lot of fluid back and forth).
Option 2) The infantry protected the horse's flanks in battle while the riders belted the enemy from the saddle. Light skirmishers, just as with modern tank warfare, can wreak havoc once they get in close with cavalry--stabbing the horses or jerking men out of the saddles. So the infantry were a "best of both worlds" compromise. The horses would have kept to a trot and their infantrymen jogged alongside them.
Yet, I think the formalized Roman equitata that patrolled the frontier, was more like a mixed duty unit. Horses patrolled, infantry pulled sentry. Apparently, Romans weren't too specialized with cavalry when the cavalry wasn't from a traditional ethnic group. As a reward for experience and good service, infantry men could move up to the cavalry. Cavalry received higher pay (presumably to cover the cost of the horse) but also had other opportunities. A governor's cavalry body guard came from a rotating man pool. Example: 2 horsemen from each camp would report for maybe a three month rotation on the governor's guard / courier service. While on this duty, they remained on the books of their parent unit. This is another reason why paper strength didn't always equal real strength. As with the modern army, guys would get farmed out to other units for various rotating duties.
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I agree with the concept of scaled down units. Actually, I'd take it a step further. Don't even try to simulate a legion or cohort. It's just too many men to do anything with. On my 10 foot by 2 foot table, I have about 50 men, 22 horses, and 3 wagons, and little room for anything else. I want to eventually do a face-off between Romans and Gauls (or Germans) and estimate I'd only be able to fit about 4 scaled-down centuries and 2 cavalry units and still have enough room left to have something meaningly interesting beyond just a huge static line.
-Tim
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Option 1) The infantry assisted the horsemen on the march like squires. In battle, they loitered in the rear and covered the horsemen's retreat (horse battles tended to involve a lot of fluid back and forth).
During a, er, toilet break I had some time to think about what I said above and suspect I may have got it wrong for "option 1".
The squires may have stood back holding the horses' reins while the riders dismounted to fight. Or gosh maybe I'm confusing this with one variant of British chariotry. Somebody somewhere dismounted from chariots to fight while the drivers waited in the rear to provide the warriors a quick getaway. I hope I'm not thinking of the Iliad...
-Tim
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I'm no Roman expert, but I wonder if this mix of cavalry and infantry might be similar to the mounted infantry which were found in the British army in the late 19th century, mainly I think in the colonies, e.g. South Africa. They were mounted for travelling purposes but actually fought on foot. Just a thought and probably (almost certainly) entirely wrong.
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My only small point of contention--
Your explanation of the tessarius carrying the staff with knob contradicts what I'd heard about the optio being responsible for keeping the rear in order.
-Tim
You're right, Tim! I mistakenly gave the optio's battle duty and staff to the tessarius! I should be more careful! You're right that the tessarius' battle duty is not well-documented. It's been hypothesized that the tessarius might be in the rear with the optio to help maintain order and might take over rear battle duty should the centurion be killed and the optio sent to the front to command the century. Regardless, the tesarius would have a pilum and no distinguishing uniform or helmet.
Below is a GREAT link explaining in detail a lot about the organization of the legion on the march and in battle. (The pop-ups are annoying, but the content more than makes up for it.) Of course much of the information provided is educated speculation, but so is most everything else I've read. To me, this site, as a whole, makes a lot of sense.
http://garyb.0catch.com/site_map.html
All your points about the equitata sound very plausible and I agree with all of them. In battle, if fighting as an independent cohort (perhaps sent on a punitive engagement against a small local tribe), the two options two you offer make a lot of sense tactically. For garrison duty, a mixed cohort makes sense as you get the best of both worlds for different duties.
Regarding scaled down units, had I actually thought practically about the space the klickies take up on the battlefield, I doubt I would have created an entire "cohort" of both Praetorians and legionaries as there are too many men to set up and move around and space becomes a major factor. If starting from scratch, I probably would create four "centuries" of legionaries, and two "centuries" each of Praetorians, auxiliary infantry, and auxiliary archers, and two "turmae" of auxiliary cavalry. I'm using four six by three foot tables which seem like a lot of space, but after setting up some men or my fort, the space disappears!
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During a, er, toilet break I had some time to think about what I said above and suspect I may have got it wrong for "option 1".
The squires may have stood back holding the horses' reins while the riders dismounted to fight. Or gosh maybe I'm confusing this with one variant of British chariotry. Somebody somewhere dismounted from chariots to fight while the drivers waited in the rear to provide the warriors a quick getaway. I hope I'm not thinking of the Iliad...
-Tim
Option 1 as you wrote it previously sounds very plausible.
The British Celts got off their chariots to fight and then when tired or in trouble, their driver would come back to pick them up.
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I'm no Roman expert, but I wonder if this mix of cavalry and infantry might be similar to the mounted infantry which were found in the British army in the late 19th century, mainly I think in the colonies, e.g. South Africa. They were mounted for travelling purposes but actually fought on foot. Just a thought and probably (almost certainly) entirely wrong.
An interesting thought, but I don't think the horse portion of the equitata acted as mounted infantry. Rather the horse and foot would perform different roles, as Tim illustrated above.
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An interesting thought, but I don't think the horse portion of the equitata acted as mounted infantry. Rather the horse and foot would perform different roles, as Tim illustrated above.
As I said, just a thought and almost certainly wrong! ;D
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Thanks for all the tips and interest guys, I don't think I'd find the time and energy to get organised without knowing someone's following progress. It's tough trying to juggle my interests in Roman, Pirates, Medieval and Modern with only one 3'x5' table to work on. For now I'll stick with the Romans, sorry Gus, tales of Oswestry Castle will have to wait, so it's up to you to keep us entertained with Fletcher, Elmo, and all the Pirates!
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9483.jpg)
Here's a fresh overview,with all non-Roman stuff off the display table. To form a backdrop I've assembled some castle pieces into a city wall, though I have a bigger stash somewhere, if only I can put my hands on it. Meantime this will have to do. Three under-strength centuries are assembled on parade, two infantry units and the Praetorians.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9485.jpg)
The Legate (purple robes) is entertaining family and friends, before inspecting the troops. Maybe he shouldn't be all purple unless he's the Emperor, but there you go. His son (gold laurels, no beard) stands waiting, he'll soon become a tribune but not just yet. The Legate's bodyguard (brown beard, orange cloak) watches respectfully. Six tribunes stand watching; we'll return to them at the end.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9487.jpg)
The Praetorian Century, with cavalry passing behind. The standard bearer is dipping his standard for the camera only. I must've knocked the table, because two tribunes are lying down on parade, not what they should be doing at all.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9489.jpg)
1st Century. Not much more I can say about that for now. I've borrowed Tim's idea of the wolf-head for the Cornicern.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9490.jpg)
Road repair crew, two legionnaires supervised by a spare Tribune.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9492.jpg)
2nd Century. A Centurion arrives in a chariot with messages. Two officers discuss the loading of siege machinery onto a 2-horse waggon.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9494.jpg)
One cart carrying a catapault is delayed by the roadworks, much to the annoyance of an off-duty officer.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Armour/IMGP9495.jpg)
So back to the Tribunes. With the white crest and black cloak is the Tribunus Laticlavius (broad stripe tribune), the youngest of the bunch, but due for a career in the Senate. He's the senior Tribue due to his class, not his experience. To his left is a shady character who clearly resents his younger colleague's seniority. I'd watch him. The remaining Tribuni Angusticlavii include one greybeard who has much wisdom and isn't fooled by the man on his left for a moment.
In the background the Siege Engineer Decurion in the sunglasses (ahem) discusses the loading of three more carts with a Centurion who awaits the arrival of his command.
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allready lookin impressive.. cant wait to see more pics..
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Nice set of photos, Martin, and a good, informative commentary. I thought at first that the Legate was going to make an oblation to the gods for a successful campaign by pouring the wine in the goblet on the ground.
Though they're not in my collecting range, I must say that the Romans are very impressive and attractive. If I had the time and the space, I suspect that they would be on my to buy list.
Look forward to more.
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Hi Martin
Nice setup!
If you want to be a stickler, probably oxen (or ahem cows) would be pulling the heavy wagons.
The problem is twofold:
1) Ancient yokes and harnesses were designed to fit the ox. The harness around the neck doesn't choke an ox due to his neck being more horizontal. When the ancients hooked a horse to this configuration, the harness pressed against the horse's throat. This is one reason why chariots had to be so flimsy and light. Horses couldn't haul heavy loads without the choke effect drasticly reducing their pulling power.
2) Ancient horses weren't the power houses bred in Europe during the middle ages but instead were closer in size to ponies. Mules could keep pace with horses on a trotting march, but horses could gallop faster which is why they were so well suited for chariotry and cavalry. I've read anecdotes about a tall cavalryman's feet almost touching the ground from horseback.
Why it took until the middle ages for somebody to invent an efficient horse yoke is beyond me. Probably because oxen were just so useful for load hauling that nobody saw a use for putting much thought into the horse yoke. Though, considering the problem that chariots faced, you'd think somebody would have figured it out. Incidently, the harness that comes with the Roman chariot isn't historically accurate. For five horse chariots, the Hittites fashioned a huge yoke of bent wood across all four necks.* The yoke had to be as light as possible, because it's weight also would reduce the horse's efficiency.
* Note: with a five horse chariot, the fifth horse was tethered by a separate leash. With his lighter load, he acted as pacemaker for the other four, which, choking on their yoke, would have been inclined to go slower. The fifth horse also served as an arrow screen... Nova or the history channel did an excellent documentary in which some British researchers went to Turkey and built a chariot. It was flimsy and under a lot of stress the wheel axle would snap off.
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Hi Martin
Nice setup!
If you want to be a stickler, probably oxen (or ahem cows) would be pulling the heavy wagons.
Longhorn or shorthorn?
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9625.jpg)
I've got several of both and could swap them in, if I can get more collars to fit, as these two did easily. Unfortunately recent sets have had combined collar/saddle pieces, which don't fit the oxen.
Are spoked wheels OK on Roman carts?
For my Auxiliary Century, I'm assuming oval shields, not rectangular, would look better, but Roman helmets, not the pot helmets, right? I'll probably buy the figures from DS but order replacement helmets as spares, so I'll have the choice of either.
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Martin, your Roman diorama looks great! I really like the narration and I can't wait to see what happens.
Tim is correct about using oxen for the wagons, but I'm using horses for all my carts and wagons, simply because Playmobil has designed them that way and I'm too lazy to change them! If I were you, I'd use the shorthorn oxen. Also, Roman carts and wagons would have had spoked wheels.
You're correct in that the auxiliary units should have the oval shields and Roman-style helmets.
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I don't have any ox harnesses and had to use string to harness my oxen.
Spoked wheels have been around since Assyrian chariots and were a necessity to keep the weight down. It's hard to believe but those early wheel rims were made from a single piece of bent wood. That process lives on in Turkey, based on the chariot documentary I saw. The craftsmen take a certain type of wood, heat-treat it, then literally bend it to the shape they want. Sometimes it breaks in process. The four horse yoke they made for the documentary took two goes.
As for the "bowl helmets" (aka spangen helms) those are roughly suitable for Republic-era legionnairres. The hastati, principes, and triarii wore a domed helmet, but with cheek pieces and a feather or plume.
BTW, I saw a NOVA documentary in which a pair of trebuchets were re-created. Those tiny wheels Playmobil puts on the catapults served a double purpose--for a rigid-arm trebuchet, the wheels convert the trebuchet's forward motion into mechanical advantage (giving the projectile extra forward velocity) while also dampening the trebs violent pendulating.
Now, granted, Roman onager's were called onagers due to their violent kick. So I'm guessing the wheels on the Roman catapult aren't accurate. But they would have been a mechanical enhancement. The catapult's kick is wasted energy.
-Tim
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9628.jpg)
My Archer Century has arrived from a favourite eBay seller in Malta, plus a bonus of three cavalrymen to add to the lonely one that I had already. The archers have lined up alongside my small Auxiliary unit, many wearing leather caps for lack of helmets.
I've created a custom centurion for the Archers, and Decurion for the Cavalry, which I'm particularly pleased with.
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Hey Martin could you either PM me or post who your Malta vendor was?
You did long ago but I deleted it. My last attempt to order 7 archers via DS came up nought.
-Tim
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Martin,
If your Malta connection is a good source for bulk purchases I would also appreciate their information, if it does not compromise your relationship. Thanks.
Gepetto
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WOW! It's really cool, Martin!! :yup:
I was reading something about you giving names to all of them ... Remember that the nomen is the family name! Not all have to have a cognomen. And there are about ten main praenomina, so, this will be the easy part (or, maybe not ...).
Would you like a list of the main prenames, or is it part of your fun? If you wish help with names, I could give you, because I just :love: love :love: giving names to klickys! 8}
It's a great troop, you did!
Gus
:blackhair:
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Hi Tim & Gepetto,
My Malta source is an eBay seller, her eBay ID is Play-123. Bear in mind she's selling at European prices, so you'll be paying the equivalent of $4 per "figure + accessories), but for British buyers, that's exactly what we'd pay if buying from Playmobil direct, and she has a better and varying range.
I prefer her buy-it-now auctions, where a 5 figure set (with full accessories) is currently £9-11 (plus postage). I generally buy multiple lots to combine postage and save on postage costs.
If you're looking for something particular, email her and she may be able to get it for you. She didn't have any Roman archers listed when I asked, but the same day 5 lots of 5 specially for me as buy-it-now, which I snapped up immediately.
hers's a link to her eBay shop http://stores.ebay.co.uk/123-Lets-Play
Gus,
I don't have any problems sourcing Roman names, as the link I gave earlier shows. It's getting them printed out, cut into strips, and stored in the heads that's going to be the labour of love.
The fun part is going to be naming the main characters - the officers, Tribunes etc. who will have specific, sometime humorous names.
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The more I read up books and websites and learn about the Roman army, and look at pictures, the more I appreciate the job the designers did on this theme.
Where they have strayed from the known facts, it an understandable and forgiveable straying, considering this a children's toy.
Take the Centurion:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/centpp14.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/centuriondrawing.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9630modified.jpg)
The Playmobil Centurion has 3 disks on the front of his armour. These are battle decorations, the equivalent of medals in the modern world.
He wears a cloak, and has a transverse crest, and his sandals are silver which a reasonable facsimile of greaves.
His sword is worn on the left, unlike the legionnaires which wear the sword on the right.
He lacks the vine staff, a symbol of office as well as a whacking stick, and the pre-cursor to the modern swagger stick, but any stick will do for that, and Playmobil has provided various stick options over the years.
Tonight I'll pop a close up photo of one of my Centurions alongside these guys to compare.
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Martin,
Thank you for the information on your Malta connection, there are a few figures that would be worth hunting down.
Your Romans look great and I was following along with mine quite nicely until you came to the archers in which I am sorely lacking ( I realize now). I really enjoy watching your progress in this theme.
Gepetto
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Thanks Gepetto! I'm enjoying the process of building the units, and learning more about a subject I only showed a surface interest in before. This is really my favourite part of Playmobil - the connection back to the real world, and the deepened understanding thereof.
The archer is well worth getting from the Malta seller if you can, unless and until Playmobil make him available as an accessory group.
The archer has eight parts (figure, helmet, bow, shoulderbelt, front clip, dagger, quiver, and arrows) compared to five for a regular legionnaire (figure, hemmet, shield, gladius, pilum) so he's going to cost more to reconstruct from DS parts.
Next comes the Signifer - Playmobil have forgiveably combined four jobs into one here:
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/signum.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/centstandard.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9632modified.jpg)
The Playmobil standard is clearly a combination of the first two - one is the Signum that each Century carried, and the second with the red flag used was a Vexillum, carried by a small part of a Legion removed for specific duties. This standard was carried until the detachment returned to the Legion. The flag carried the Legion's number and symbols, if they had any, to show where they belonged.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/signif.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/nijmegen2005_29.jpg)
The third standard bearer is an Imagnifer, carrying an image of the Emperor. There would be one per Legion, I understand. A fourth standard bearer was the Aquilifer, who carried the Aquila, a golden eagle atop a pole. This recreationist is indeed wearing a lion skin. Again, one per Legion, and this standard stayed with the greater part of a Legion wherever it went.
So there was only one Imagnifer and Aquilifer each per Legion. It would be easy enough to re-create these standards from Playmo parts, but for Playmo's purposes they are rare enough to ignore (for now?)
All the re-creationists I have posted pictures of wear chainmail, an animal skin, and their gladius on the right hip. The animal skins might be from a wolf or bear - Playmobil have gone with a lion skin, like the Aquilifer. There doesn't seem to be a fixed animal skin for a particular standard.
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Hey thanks for the side by side comparisons Martin . It really does look like playmobil did a decent job in their design.
Your army by the way is looking great & i hope you keep us posted on any expansions .
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Playmobil haven't yet created a Cornicern, the officer who was there to sound the signals to co-ordinate units, but we have a good idea of what one looked like.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/cornu.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Randymobile1.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9633modified.jpg)
He carried the Cornu, a nearly circular horn, wore an animal skin, chainmail, wore his sword on the right hip, and in battle carried a round shield.
I've used the Signifer figure, but changed his lion skin for the wolf pelt from the 4437 Barbarian set, and he holds a horn that appeared in some Viking a earlier Knight sets. The chainmail coif is not accurate, but the wolf skin fits it, and I think it looks OK.
There have been several versions of the wolf headpiece and a few wolfskin cloaks in Western Indian sets, but unfortunately the cloaks are not currently available in the UK. I'm trying to source a few though eBay.
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I considered making a cornu using a wagon horse wip, the horn (you pictured), and a black flag post from the castle roof. It's almost do-able. Alternatively, a reasonably thick wire might work also, but my last trip to the hobby part shop didn't turn up anything.
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Though I'm not collecting Romans I'm finding this a fascinating thread, Martin; thank you for all your work in posting your findings and pics.
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Gus,
I don't have any problems sourcing Roman names, as the link I gave earlier shows. It's getting them printed out, cut into strips, and stored in the heads that's going to be the labour of love.
The fun part is going to be naming the main characters - the officers, Tribunes etc. who will have specific, sometime humorous names.
Yeah, I got that ;D
The name-generating program is what worries me ... But, then again, possible mistakes won't go bad, once you wish some humour with your naming activity ...
If you wish to check up the eficiency of the program, send me some of the names though pm, and I may tell you if they're good ... I was graduated in Latin Language & Literature, after all.
But I'm very very glad that you decided to give names to ALL of them, Martin! It's a splendid way of making the thing more personal, and more interesting not only to you, but to us as well. As well as I imagine the work you'll have in writing the names ... it's gonna be great like, in a hundred, two hundred years in the future, people looking at your collection, in a museum :lol:
I wander ...
-x-
Your work is going really fine! keep with it. It's delightful!
A P. Oliua Guga* scriptae sunt res eae!
P. Oliua Guga
:blackhair:
*Which is my own made-up Roman alter-ego 8} ...
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/legionarysp.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/04yorkshire_museum2.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9641modified.jpg)
Time to meet the bog-standard Legionary, the bulk of my forces.
The Lorica Segmentata he wears was in use from about 9BC until sometime in the 4th Century AD, so he fits nicely into my era. This style of armour has been discovered in at least three distict variants, and many places the Romans went. Some of there are known to only ever have been garrisoned by Auxiliary troops, so it's unclear who exactly got to wear it, but I'm reserving it for my Roman Cohorts.
The red of his under-armour clothing and shield seems to have become a widely accepted colour for the Roman army, and Playmo were wise to adopt it. He also correctly has his Gladius on the right hip, and a Pilum (light spear or javalin).
Standard battle tactics were to close to within throwing range, throw one or more Pila (two light and one heavy Pila could be carried), then close with the enemy and stab with the short sword from behind a wall of shields. Individual heroics were discouraged and pretty much suicidal. The shield was heavy enough to bash the enemy with, and the curve helped deflect missiles. The Playmo shield should probably be more curved than it is, but it's a reasonable facsimile.
The segmentata armour provided better protection than chainmail and was much lighter, but was expensive to produce and difficult to repair, and slowly fell into disuse during the 3rd-4th Centuries.
The only feature I can mention as a minus is the shoulders, which should have been covered by segmentata armour plates as seen in the first two pictures above, not the "Roman Shoulders" as we have come to call them (there is a name for these leather strips but I forget it). However continuing the solid neckpiece over the shoulder would have prevented the arms from being raised above the shoulders, and I believe this was a deliberate design decision, not an oversight or mistake. On actual segmentata of course the pieces move - not reproduceable in Playmo-size plastic.
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Hey Martin, one quibble--
The "lorica segmentata" term we like to bounce around traces back only to the Renaissance.
The Roman term was "lorica laminata" (laminated armor).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorica_segmentata
I really shouldn't quibble about this, except that we Roman-izers are using those terms as a sort of cant to distinguish ourselves from the luddites.
Only the term is no more authentic than using the English "segmented armor".
EDIT:
On the subject of Decurions, I wasn't completely satisfied with the plumed helm, given a lot of pictures I had of the decurion wearing a cheeked dome-helmet with flowing feathers. Here was my custom:
-Tim
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You're quite right to pull me up about the Lorica Segmentata name, I thought I'd mentioned that but must have deleted it editing.
I suspect the Lorica Laminata name has been avoided since it might get people confused with Japanese laminated armour, and they're not even sure about that designation. The Roman version is overlapping, but not exactly laminated as we now used the term.
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/auxil2.jpg)(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/IMGP9640modified.jpg)
Onto the Auxiliary footsoldier. While a Legionnaire was a Roman citizen, an Auxiliary was a non-citizen, but living in the Empire under Roman rule. The number of auxiliaries in the Roman Army grew steadily over time, sm more and more land was conquered, and local peoples had to be recruited to garrison their homelands, until in 212 AD the Antonine Decree gave all free inhabitants of the Empire full citizenship.
Lorica Hamata, chainmail, was the commonest armour for auxiliary footsoldiers and cavalry, so I'm using also the chainmail clad figure for my auxiliaries. Before the advent of Lorica Segmentata (or Laminata), all Roman Legionnaires wore chain, after it was phased out they reverted to chain, and while it was around some still may have worn chain, so this is a very useful figure. I'm not sure why the figures in regular sets are given Roman helmets, while the accessory set figures have pot helms, but mine are all going to get Roman helmets in time.
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Hi Martin
One detail you're missing--
Judging by the photos--
All Roman soldiers were fat guys.
But seriously--
I was a little upset about the pot helms with the auxiliary add-on (also the fact they wear greaves). On the other hand, the pot helm almost looks like the helmet worn by the old maniple army (minus cheek guards) or the later helmets worn in the 4th century army (minus cheek guards and nose protector) that evolved into the medieval pot helm.
So the pot helm isn't completely unserviceable.
-Tim
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also the fact they wear greaves
Golly, I never even noticed that difference until you mentioned it. Kinda wish I'd ordered my extra auxiliaries through DS now. I wonder why they did that? At least if they're not the front rank thay won't show much. Guess I can order 15~ish of the correct-legged figure and swap them in eventually. At lest the feet don't show all that much.
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Martin, you've really given yourself quite the education on the Roman army! Although I've always been fascinated with Rome, I must admit that Playmobil's theme was the recent impetus which got me (back) into Rome. It seems it's the same in your case as well. You've done a great job researching troop types and equipment.
I too feel that Playmobil has done a great job at recreating the various Roman klickies. Yes, there is a bit of room for improvement, but overall they've done a spectacular job considering it's a toy.
I agree with you and Tim that the greaves and helmet, as well as the pilum, should not have been put in the "auxiliary" add-on pack. Sandals, the "'Roman" helmet, a regular spear, and brown jagged hair would have made this add-on pack perfect. They also should have made a Hamian archer add-on pack.
I keep hoping that Playmobil will release a variety of new Roman klickies in the future. These would include some green auxiliaries with the changes mentioned above and a new green half-moon shield design, an aquilifer for the legion with a brown bear's head helmet and skin so we can use the klicky for our century signifiers and cornicens, and a cornicen with a grey wolf's head helmet and skin so we can use him for our auxiliary signifiers and cornicens. This would help round out the Roman theme rather nicely, in my opinion.
Regarding the "fat" Roman soldiers, I too thought this about the reenactors I'd seen in pictures and in film until I read that when wearing a chain mail tunic, it must be somewhat loose in the stomach for flexibility. Therefore, while it looks like they all have beer bellies, they actually don't. (Or at least some of them don't!)
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9812modified.jpg)
I've left this picture oversized deliberately to give an overview of my units so far.
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9810.jpg)
On the left we have a century of Auxiliaries, with Hamian Archers behind. The auxiliaries are armed with spears and oval shields, and I consider them to be weaker troops than the Legionnaires, used for secondary duties (e.g. guarding the baggage train or siege engines).
To their right is the auxiliary cavalry, with a line up of spare officers in front. I haven't decided quite where these guys are going yet, but the two with yellow crests & cloaks will be in charge of the siege engines. These rest are wearing a selection of spare helmet crests.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9809.jpg)
To the right of the cavalry I have a 10 man unit of Parthian Archers (thanks to Tim for nation identification and Gepetto for sending the figures). I'm planning on giving these guys gold scimitars to replace the daggers when I can find them. I don't know if this is accurate, but I like the look. I'm unsure if foreign Auxiliary units would have Roman-born Centurions (and Signifers and Cornicerns) or would supply their own, so for now I have a Roman Centurion in charge, and Parthians as Cornicern and Signifer. All my cornicerns will eventually have wolf head-dresses, and the signifers lion head-dresses.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9815.jpg)
Behind them with red crests, a specialist 10 man unit of... what? I see them as either mountain troops (wearing cold-weather uniform, hence the trousers and boots) or Pioneers/Engineers of some sort. Possibly they could guard and operate the heavy siege engines. I really like these figures (I didn't know until yesterday that the body is printed both front & back), and want them to be an elite unit, hence the red crests and cloaks, to mirror the Praetorian blue crests and cloaks.
These green shields I find a bit odd - having the handle on the right means that the klicky cannot hold it in front of him facing forwards, instead it protects his left side. The red rectangular Roman shields I flip over and have the handle on the left, so the shield protects the front facing forwards, but that doesn't really work with these guys.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9816.jpg)
The Praetorians you all know. In some images (e.g. the film Gladiator) they have black as their primary uniform colour, but that appears to be pure speculation, and I've also seen Praetorian re-enactors in red. I'd assume the re-enactors know what they're doing, probably more than Hollywood researchers. I like the blue, and they make a good bodyguard unit with their spears. I need to read up more about Praetorians, but I concur with the theory that spears would be more useful than pila, because they are better for forming a bristling defensive shield wall around their leaders. A pilum is designed to be thrown, not held and thust with, as Gordon mentioned earlier. It's hard to tell what was carried from carvings and statuary, because of artistic license.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9818.jpg)
Behind the Praetorians I have the Hamian Archers who gave up their kit to the Parthians.
It seemed a shame to waste these figures when I have enough crested helmets, shields and pila to form a new unit. What could they be? I'm leaning towards having these mixed in with the Hamians to give better defense, much as units at the time of the English Civil War would mix pikemen alongside musketmen. While the musketeers reloaded, the pikemen would defend them against sudden attack such as a cavalry charge. Did the Romans do this? There's no reason they couldn't, but I just don't know right now. I'm awaiting a book that deals with Roman military tactics in greater detail, but even that is very much speculation based on equipment.
Behind the Hamian footsoldiers stand the Tribunes.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9813modified.jpg)
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I agree with you and Tim that the greaves and helmet, as well as the pilum, should not have been put in the "auxiliary" add-on pack. Sandals, the "'Roman" helmet, a regular spear, and brown jagged hair would have made this add-on pack perfect. They also should have made a Hamian archer add-on pack.
Agree with everything except the brown jagged hair. I'm glad the auxiliaries have different hair, that way I can swap a few over with other figures for variety. I know there probably shouldn't be any blond legionnaires, but with jagged, curly and "squire", plus an occasional beard, there's a fair bit of variety that can be included, not that much of it is visible under the helmet.
I keep hoping that Playmobil will release a variety of new Roman klickies in the future. These would include some green auxiliaries with the changes mentioned above and a new green half-moon shield design, an aquilifer for the legion with a brown bear's head helmet and skin so we can use the klicky for our century signifiers and cornicens, and a cornicen with a grey wolf's head helmet and skin so we can use him for our auxiliary signifiers and cornicens. This would help round out the Roman theme rather nicely, in my opinion.
Some different shield colours and designs would be nice too, and I think they'd sell in big numbers. We've already seen people doing their own stickers for Roman shields on eBay, but I'd rather have the genuine article from Playmobil. I might try to create my own shield stickers eventually, but they probably wouldn't look very good.
Regarding the "fat" Roman soldiers, I too thought this about the re-enactors I'd seen in pictures and in film until I read that when wearing a chain mail tunic, it must be somewhat loose in the stomach for flexibility. Therefore, while it looks like they all have beer bellies, they actually don't. (Or at least some of them don't!)
The average Brit spends the first few years of his adult life chasing women and drinking beer, the next few raising kids and drinking beer, and the next phase is finding a weekend hobby to help avoid the wife and kids, while still allowing him to drink beer.
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Wow, Martin! You completed your army very quickly and I'm extremely impressed at all the different troop types you've mustered! I particularly like the Parthian archers. Now you've got me thinking about getting a bunch of the new Roman blister packs myself and using the centurions for Parthian archers and the old legionary for the Emperor's Personal German Bodyguard.
Regarding the officers in auxiliary cohorts, originally they were usually commanded by the chieftain of the tribe from which they were raised, however by the time of the Empire, and certainly in the time you're trying to re-create, each cohort would have been commanded by a Roman Prefect of Equestrian status without a doubt. For the lower rank officers, I would assume that the centurions, especially for "barbarian" infantry and cavalry cohorts, would be Roman. For specialized units like the Hamian and Parthian archers, however, I'm not completely sure about the centurions, as they may have been non-Roman due to their knowledge of weaponry and tactics which probably eclipsed Roman knowledge on the subject. I would also guess that the signifiers, cornicens, and possibly optios would have been non-Roman.
Regarding the Praetorians, Hollywood, both in the golden and in the current age, does like to show them wearing black, probably because it makes them look evil and intimidating. I like that look a lot, but in reality blue or even red or white seems to be the more authentic color choice. I would say Playmobil got the blue color right just as they got the scorpion on his shield right. That said, Playmobil's "Praetorian" klicky is somewhat of a mess unless he is meant to be a Praetorian centurion. A regular Praetorian guardsman would have worn a lorica segmentata like his legionary counterpart, his sword on the right, no greaves, and been armed with a pilum and a scutum, not a spear and an auxiliary type shield. Still, he looks good enough to use for "play" purposes and I had no problem forming a "cohort" of Praetorians based on the one klicky. ;)
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The average Brit spends the first few years of his adult life chasing women and drinking beer, the next few raising kids and drinking beer, and the next phase is finding a weekend hobby to help avoid the wife and kids, while still allowing him to drink beer.
:lol:
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Excellent Martin,
I especially like those Parthian archers! But I also like to see the troops in formation and you do have a nice variety of figures, thank you for sharing with us (I think you have a lot of people thinking of their own Romans and getting them out and in formation!).
Gepetto
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Excellent indeed!!!
:yup:
It's great to have DS! ... :-\ But, anyway, even without it, it'd take long before I could assemble a decuria ... :-[ 8} ;D
& It isn't my idea to make armies myself, all right, but, Martin, I have to say that yours is delightful!, a wonderful job, you can be proud about them!
I'd really like to see your troops fighting Tim's, in a Roman civil war ::), that'd be great! You should think seriously about it, you both! ;)
Congrats!
A splendid troop!
Gus
:blackhair:
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You've done a great job there, Martin, to excellent effect, and many thanks for sharing with us, not only in pictures but also with detailed background information and explanation. I think Gus identifies the next step - someone to fight, but will it be civil war or peacekeeping on the borders of the Empire or conquering new territory?
Thanks again. :wow: :wow: :wow:
PS: Tidying away my display setup which I had set it up in the garage to see how some changes to it looked and photograph a few things, I thought I'd try and see if I could make room in the garage for it to be setup permanently rather like your side table in your study. Thanks for the idea.
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Thanks for all the kind comments guys!
I'd really like to see your troops fighting Tim's, in a Roman civil war ::), that'd be great! You should think seriously about it, you both! ;)
The only problem is that Tim and I live over 3,000 miles apart ;D and I don't have a car (or more usefully a boat, since we are separated by the Atlantic Ocean).
Since these pictures were taken I've removed the cavalry to fit in two more centuries of regular Legionnaires, and dicovered I was ONE MAN short! :lol: I'm awaiting a second package from Gepetto which will bring the Parthians, Pioneers and Hamian footsoldiers up to full strength, by which time I will be fielding 250 soldiers on foot in 10 centuries, plus 25 cavalry and the general command staff (Tribunes, Legate, Praefecti etc).
Unfortunately the next four weekends I'm busy with Morris Dancing and other events, so won't have the time or energy to do a full battle, but it's in the planning stage. I'm negotiating use of the bigger dining room table, which put together with this one should make a very decent size for a bigger layout. The background might not be all that so you'll have to use imagination. The poor Celts are severely outnumbered though, and will probably have to recruit some Vikings and others to make a decent fight of it.
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Hi Martin
Great pictures! Did you get all those old style Romans from Target blister packs (in other words: are the blisters available yet?)
Regarding the green shield, if the klicky's hand is in standard position, he can hold the shield in front of him (I have a bunch of those shields in, er, lavender. They double as the pavise shield for the medievals).
As for staging a battle between us, that would be lovely. We could arrange the battle in the front yard that way the police man (and his backup team) who inevitably get called by my neighbors would be able to watch without busting down my front door.
Neighbors: "After Tim and that no-good foreigner get done playing with those kid toys on the front lawn, they're probably going to kill my dog or sumpthin'. You gotta do something, officer."
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i should report those pictures.. they make me envy with my 7 roman footsoldiers :P :wave:
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Hi Martin
Great pictures! Did you get all those old style Romans from Target blister packs (in other words: are the blisters available yet?)
Regarding the green shield, if the klicky's hand is in standard position, he can hold the shield in front of him (I have a bunch of those shields in, er, lavender. They double as the pavise shield for the medievals).
Gepetto got them for me, from Fred Meyer.
Could you illustrate with a photo how to get a klicky to hold one of your lovely lavender shields in front of them? 'cos it isn't working for me, as long as I leave the klicky's hand on the end of his arm (i.e. standard position), unless I turn the shield upside down..
If they hold it in their right hand, yes, but all my klickies are right-handed (or forced to be at risk being burnt at the stake) and want their shield in their left hand.
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If they hold it in their right hand, yes, but all my klickies are right-handed (or forced to be at risk being burnt at the stake) and want their shield in their left hand.
Hi Martin, I re-investigated the shield and see what you mean.
How about turning the shield upside down so the left hand works?
The curved top isn't Roman-ish, anyway, and it looks better than having the shield off to the side like that.
-Tim
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According to Collectobil, the shield first appeared in medieval set, in 1993:
(http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3651.jpg)
& attached
The only problem is that Tim and I live over 3,000 miles apart ;D and I don't have a car (or more usefully a boat, since we are separated by the Atlantic Ocean).
That's what hollidays are for!!! ;D
I'm joking. It isn't an easy thing to program, to cross the Atlantic, specially carrying that lot of playmo: they'll think you're smuggling! :lol:
Unfortunately the next four weekends I'm busy with Morris Dancing and other events, so won't have the time or energy to do a full battle, but it's in the planning stage. I'm negotiating use of the bigger dining room table, which put together with this one should make a very decent size for a bigger layout. The background might not be all that so you'll have to use imagination. The poor Celts are severely outnumbered though, and will probably have to recruit some Vikings and others to make a decent fight of it.
I know what you mean ... ("I'm busy with Morris Dancing and other events")
I have two parts of Elmo & Fletcher shot, but had no time last two weekends, and probably won't have next ... :-[
& I'm dying for shooting more pirates' stuff, but I have to work some things in scenary before, and even the shooting will demand some time I won't have, at least next weekend (because, if I have the time I intend TO MAKE, on Sunday, I'll make so as to post Elmo & Fletcher ... 8} & I'm late already! 8} )
As for your Celts allies (Vikings), and mixing Celts, Vikings & Romans, I think it may work pretty well ... I myself intend to make stories of a Roman soldier & a Viking-looking character (in the IVth or Vth century, probably) ... Esthetically, I think it works fine.
[Roman legionaire attached]
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Playmobil really should have put the shield handle on the left side. That was a huge oversight, but at least they got it right on the later Roman scutum.
Regarding enemies for the Romans, I've enlisted my many Vikings (after eliminating their fantastical helmets in favor of regular ones). They, combined with a dozen or so Playmobil Gauls, make for a good proper enemy for my Romans. That said, my Romans still outnumber my "barbarians" which would not have been realistic.
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Playmobil really should have put the shield handle on the left side. That was a huge oversight, but at least they got it right on the later Roman scutum.
Regarding enemies for the Romans, I've enlisted my many Vikings (after eliminating their fantastical helmets in favor of regular ones). They, combined with a dozen or so Playmobil Gauls, make for a good proper enemy for my Romans. That said, my Romans still outnumber my "barbarians" which would not have been realistic.
Good to know I wasn't going mad. I wonder why Playmo designed a shield that could only be held correctly in the right hand? Did they have a left-handed rebel designer who snuck it through? The poor crossbowman in Gus's 3651 picture even has his right hand twisted palm outwards.
Still, I'm soon going to have 25 of these, and it'd be a shame not to use them at all, correct or not. I've tried them upside down, it's not all that comfy, and I might cut them down but that would be a shame. I will probably give these to the Hamian footsoldiers to guard the archers, who can form a shield wall in front of the archers, and perform an almost entirely defensive role.
I was comparing the scutum to various illustrations last night, and it's really a little too big, and not curved enough, but for play purposes it works better this way. The rectangular scutum was about 4 feet tall, so when carried it would leave the feet and head exposed. For a standing klicky though, the shield conveniently touches the ground and makes the figure much more stable than one balancing just on his feet - I've lost track of how many times I've jarred my table and had a domino-effect of falling figures, but the legionnaires rarely fall.
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Considering the Green Roman's boots, he could make a good auxiliary soldier on outpost duty along the Rhine or Hadrian's wall. I know they didn't wear sandals in the snow!
Or maybe even a soldier from (or stationed in) Armenia.
Unfortunately, I'm having problems finding information on auxiliaries. Osprey books can really be siren-like... a few are chock-full with useful information; but most just summarize standard histories and provide photos of rusted equipment or fanciful drawings that even the author of the book finds fault with. Yet, when you see the title of the book, it looks like the book will contain everything you need to know to get the subject matter up and running on a wargame table.
-Tim
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I have 23 of these Romans, and only currently 1 Galley. I want to get more of the Galleys and use these Romans as Marines.
-- Donmobil
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Good to know I wasn't going mad. I wonder why Playmo designed a shield that could only be held correctly in the right hand? Did they have a left-handed rebel designer who snuck it through? The poor crossbowman in Gus's 3651 picture even has his right hand twisted palm outwards.
(I'm lefthanded ...) The shield being made to be held with the right hand is a mistake (I should say "common mistake", the same kind of mistake of giving a white (polar) leopard skin to a('n African) Masai warrior -- the same kind of mistake that Playmobil designers do, now and again and, well, in a way, we can regret, but not fix; they're designers, not historians, and sometimes WE seem to be a bit too perfectionist (...)).
I think that, once they (now and again) make mistakes, they should think about corrrecting these mistakes, and relaunch the same model of shield/Masai-man later, corrected (...). But, well, naaaah! Shame on them, but I don't think this would happen.
Launching the Special legionaire with THAT model of shield seems to me like an experience: "let's see what people think of it" ... Eventually, they must have realized that the legionaire & Romans idea was well accepted, but that they had to make a better shield, and so they did.
Even so, the old model should be (easily (...)(?)) redesigned, made to be held with the left hand, and leave the right hand free for crossbow/sword ...
But have in mind that that model is a medieval one, not Roman. It was improvised, in the Special.
Still, I'm soon going to have 25 of these, and it'd be a shame not to use them at all, correct or not. I've tried them upside down, it's not all that comfy, and I might cut them down but that would be a shame. I will probably give these to the Hamian footsoldiers to guard the archers, who can form a shield wall in front of the archers, and perform an almost entirely defensive role.
I was comparing the scutum to various illustrations last night, and it's really a little too big, and not curved enough, but for play purposes it works better this way. The rectangular scutum was about 4 feet tall, so when carried it would leave the feet and head exposed. For a standing klicky though, the shield conveniently touches the ground and makes the figure much more stable than one balancing just on his feet - I've lost track of how many times I've jarred my table and had a domino-effect of falling figures, but the legionnaires rarely fall.
You'll have to let it pass, Martin ... The shield is pretty upwards, but it's badly designed ... unfortunately. And yes, a bit too high ... I'm not sure about medieval kinds of shields, and can't recollect having ever seen that model ... But I'm not a specialist, and medieval warfare is vast.
Gus
:blackhair:
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I can see where they got the inspiration for the shield
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Balestriere1.jpg)
and for a crossbowman who carries his shield to within crossbow-shot of the castle battlements, maybe a shield held in the right hand makes sense. It's big, it's very heavy, and once you plant it and hide behind it, it doesn't matter how you carried it there.
As we've noted before, the Specials often seem to be testing the water. If that bunch of nutters hadn't bought 5-6,000 of this figure to build their legion, maybe we wouldn't have a Roman theme now.
If the Masai Warrior leads to a Masai theme, maybe they'll correct the leopardskin colour on later figures.
It's a shame, because there isn't another shield in the Playmo range that can't be held in either hand as far as I know.
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Hey Martin, ditch the shield and give the guy a round shield or oval shield.
With those heavy boots he wears, he'd make a good candidate for an auxiliary on garrison duty in some unforgiving place. His armor is vaguely similar to German armor depicted in Osprey (shirts of laminated armor).
-Tim
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I can see where they got the inspiration for the shield
[pic, attached]
and for a crossbowman who carries his shield to within crossbow-shot of the castle battlements, maybe a shield held in the right hand makes sense. It's big, it's very heavy, and once you plant it and hide behind it, it doesn't matter how you carried it there. [agreed]
As we've noted before, the Specials often seem to be testing the water. If that bunch of nutters hadn't bought 5-6,000 of this figure to build their legion, maybe we wouldn't have a Roman theme now.
Makes sense ... This solves the matter of the (medieval) shield.
& The new Roman shields look very accurate. (Although I don't have any yet, I've had lots (and lots ... and more lots) of pictures from you guys :) )
Gus
:blackhair:
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If that bunch of nutters hadn't bought 5-6,000 of this figure to build their legion, maybe we wouldn't have a Roman theme now.
Hi Martin would you mind buying 5-6,000 of the Kossack special?
I really have my heart set on a Tsarist Russia theme (??????).
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Hi Martin would you mind buying 5-6,000 of the Kossack special?
I really have my heart set on a Tsarist Russia theme (??????).
If 500 people buy 10 each ...
I'm not the kind of guy who buys 100 of something, but I think I'd buy 10 of those soldiers, and more 8 "fletchers" ... They're the same colour, so, who knows, they'll become a future medieval citylife theme, to be relaunched in celebration of the new timbered houses to come ;D ...
So ...
Gus
:blackhair:
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Hey Martin, ditch the shield and give the guy a round shield or oval shield.
With those heavy boots he wears, he'd make a good candidate for an auxiliary on garrison duty in some unforgiving place. His armor is vaguely similar to German armor depicted in Osprey (shirts of laminated armor).
-Tim
I agree. I'd give him an oval shield because he'd make a perfect auxiliary. I'd personally use these klickies as either the Emperor's German bodyguard or as German cavalrymen, perhaps serving in a cold climate.
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This book may be of use to people:
http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/books/The_Complete_Roman_Army/9780500051245.mxs/35/0/
and list of contents:
http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/en/1/romanarmycontents.mxs?38f78265f072c43991cbd894e361bbac
I've not read it, but I have read a book in the same series on ancient Rome and found that very interesting and also well commented on by a friend who is a Classicist.
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Thanks for the links Gordon. AT present I'm up to my ears in Roman army books, but this one did come up on the radar.
What I'm now waiting for is a book about actual Roman Battle Tactics, something which has only been focussed on by one book in English so far. Unfortunately that makes the book hard to get hold of, and my order through Amazon is delayed.
My units are complete barring about 30 oval shields for a couple of the auxiliary cohorts, but I'm inclined to pack them away for now (after one more photo session) so I can assemble my double-ended arena on the display table.
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Martin, I'm not sure if the book below on battle tactics is the one you're referring to, but it's decent enough, if not exactly comprehensive. Then again, beggars can't be choosers!
http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Battle-Tactics-109BC-AD313-Elite/dp/1846031842/ref=pd_sim_b_5
I'm amazed that you've been able to fully assemble your spectacular Roman army in so short a time! I've been working on my Roman army, which doesn't feature any Partian auxiliaries :'( , for over a year now and while it's pretty substantial and nearly complete, it's not fully finished. Playmobil's parts department must be a lot better in the UK than it is in the US!
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That's the one - 2-5 weeks is the estimate there, I've been waiting about three so far.
The UK parts department is certainly more reliable than the US one - they supplied 25 cavalrymen, though 4 signifers had to be sent back as painted ladies. I got a lot of shields, helmets and gladii via parts there too, and wish I'd got all my auxilairies that was to avoid the greaves problem. I may yet order a dozen or so auxiliaries with leather sandals to replace the greaves guys..
50 of the figures came via Gepetto, so thanks again for the Parthian Archers and fur-booted German Auxiliaries units - couldn't have done this without him. The Hamian Archer figures (both remaining as archers and transformed into Auxiliaries) mainly came from Play 1-2-3 on eBay, who dug them out specially on my request and put them up as a buy-it-now for me, at less than the figures would have cost to assemble via the parts department.
It's been fun and occasionally aggravating assembling my Legion, but I think I'm 99% there now. 11 centuries of 24 figures, so many that I can't get them all on the same display table, at least with the Hadrian's wall backdrop in place.
I also have the 6 Legates, the Praefectus Castrorum, and a dozen spare officer figures whose roles are yet unfixed. A couple will command the siege engines, and a couple more the baggage train. I may also have a gate commander.
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I'm amazed that you've been able to fully assemble your spectacular Roman army in so short a time! I've been working on my Roman army, which doesn't feature any Partian auxiliaries
Recommendation: don't try to keep up with Martin.
When he was sixteen he woke up in the same hay loft with a very hung over Margaret Thatcher, and she's still trying to keep him quiet about it.
But seriously, how did Gepetto manage to nab 25 Roman blisters? These stores usually stock about 5 at a time. Was he able to mail order from somewhere?
Hey, here are some more book recommendations:
Pat Southern's "Augustus" (Southern was co-author of "The Roman Cavalry"). She goes into great detail about Augustus's political environment. Sometimes too much detail, but it's there for the reading. At issue is exactly how did Augustus frame his power. Historians aren't even sure to what extent he may have co-ruled the republic with Agrippa (Agrippa managed the eastern portion as either an equal or as an exception to all Roman legal titles). Augustus strived to couch himself in legal legitimacy and it is difficult to interpret all the layers of subterfuge.
-Tim
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(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/Roman%20Layouts/IMGP9819modified.jpg)
Hmmm, a bit dark.
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But seriously, how did Gepetto manage to nab 25 Roman blisters? These stores usually stock about 5 at a time. Was he able to mail order from somewhere?
-Tim
Hello Tim,
Once I found that the Fred Meyer chain was stocking the blister packs, and that the Romans were the blister Du jour I just made the rounds of the local stores. You are correct in that most stores stock 4-6 blisters but the big stores carried as many as a dozen! I picked up 25 for Martin, 25 for myself (I just got into the habit!) and have a line on about 8 more that are a little too far out to get incidentally. I have been told that no more will be coming in until the Christmas shipment but the new shipments arriving at Kmart are the Crusaders and Pirates so I don't know if the Romans will be around much longer.
Gepetto
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http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/books/The_Complete_Roman_Army/9780500051245.mxs/35/0/
and list of contents:
Hi Gordon, Adrian Goldsworthy, author of the book you reference above, is a well-regarded historian. He has a ton of books and I've seen him in a few History channel documentaries.
Graham Webster, Pat Southern, Peter Connolly are a few other widely-read historians.
Hello Tim,
Once I found that the Fred Meyer chain was stocking the blister packs, and that the Romans were the blister Du jour I just made the rounds of the local stores. You are correct in that most stores stock 4-6 blisters but the big stores carried as many as a dozen! I picked up 25 for Martin, 25 for myself (I just got into the habit!) and have a line on about 8 more that are a little too far out to get incidentally. I have been told that no more will be coming in until the Christmas shipment but the new shipments arriving at Kmart are the Crusaders and Pirates so I don't know if the Romans will be around much longer.
Gepetto
This annoys me that they have only come out at Fred Meyer so far. I'm banking on Toys R Us or Target getting them in.
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IMG
Hmmm, a bit dark.
Hm ... No no ... Very good! :yup:
More, more! ;D
Anyway ... What a crowd, aye Martin? It seems you can really conquer the world! 8}
:wave:
Gus
:blackhair:
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Incredible! 25 blister packs for EACH of you! I haven't seen ANY of these Roman blister packs at my local Targets, Wal-Marts, or Toys 'R Us. I'm very jealous!
Martin, I'm sure we'd all like to see some larger pictures and a complete unit list of your army when you get a chance. :)
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Incredible! 25 blister packs for EACH of you! I haven't seen ANY of these Roman blister packs at my local Targets, Wal-Marts, or Toys 'R Us. I'm very jealous!
I am very surprised I have not seen these blisters anywhere else! Our Target and TRU are just stagnant! I have no idea what is going on, except that I want the Crusaders!!
Gepetto
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I picked up 25 for Martin, 25 for myself (I just got into the habit!) and have a line on about 8 more that are a little too far out to get incidentally. I have been told that no more will be coming in until the Christmas shipment but the new shipments arriving at Kmart are the Crusaders and Pirates so I don't know if the Romans will be around much longer.
Gepetto
heh heh heh, [rubbing hands greedily] well I'm sorted for Romans, and I feel a little guilty for poor Gepetto buying perhaps more for himself than originally intended!
Incredible! 25 blister packs for EACH of you! I haven't seen ANY of these Roman blister packs at my local Targets, Wal-Marts, or Toys 'R Us. I'm very jealous!
Martin, I'm sure we'd all like to see some larger pictures and a complete unit list of your army when you get a chance. :)
It's kind of odd that I've got 25 Roman Blisters, even though I live several thousand miles from where they've been released. All thanks to Gepetto of course, for cruising the stores and fighting off any greedy selfish children who had their eyes on MY Romans. Plus my wife for writing and sending the checks. So far I haven't done a thing except enjoy the fruits of Gepetto's labours, and gloat. Oh yes my friends, a LOT of GLOATING. >:D
I was planning to do a few more photos last night, but was forced instead to watch the UK TV coverage of the 1st week of the new NFL season.
I'll be collecting Crusaders too, but only when I'm visiting the US myself.
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I stopped by my local Toys 'R Us today and while they had a entire aisle of Playmobil sets, probably the most I've ever seen at Toys 'R Us, the only blister packs they had were a few of the old gladiators. It looked like the rack had been stripped clean. Maybe Gepetto was there? ;)
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I stopped by my local Toys 'R Us today and while they had a entire aisle of Playmobil sets, probably the most I've ever seen at Toys 'R Us, the only blister packs they had were a few of the old gladiators. It looked like the rack had been stripped clean. Maybe Gepetto was there? ;)
Ha, ha. Nope not me! I have never seen a Roman blister at TRU, the local TRU here just has gladiators too!
Gepetto
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It's kind of odd that I've got 25 Roman Blisters
Uh, under any other context, the above would sound very gross.
A tromp through Italy in badly-fitting shoes...
A tramp from Italy with body-fitting tools...
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I am very surprised I have not seen these blisters anywhere else! Our Target and TRU are just stagnant! I have no idea what is going on, except that I want the Crusaders!!
Gepetto
Hi Gepetto, if you want to work out a deal, I could get you some crusaders plus pay for the return postage for the Romans. I'm talking like 5 blisters. ;D Mail 2 to me and three to Justin. 0) I'm still banking that they will come out at Target or TRU but am a little worried.
-Tim
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Hello Tim,
I don't have a problem getting blisters for anyone who can't find them locally, I don't think I could get them on the scale I did for Martin at this point but 5 blisters is certainly no problem.
Just PM me addresses and what you need.
Gepetto
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Hello Tim,
I don't have a problem getting blisters for anyone who can't find them locally, I don't think I could get them on the scale I did for Martin at this point but 5 blisters is certainly no problem.
Just PM me addresses and what you need.
Gepetto
[Rubs hands greedily] Yes, my lovelies.
When the first set of blisters appeared I thought they'd be a US exclusive, but having seen most of them appear on the Playmobil UK website since, I'm sure these Romans and Crusaders etc will appear in the UK eventually, I'm just impatient.
The policeman& robber blister didn't show up on the UK site, presumably because the policeman looks very American.
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If it is not too much to ask , Where are people finding the particular blisters at what stores ? I have not seen any or the new blisters at any of the stores in my area .
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Once I found that the Fred Meyer chain was stocking the blister packs, and that the Romans were the blister Du jour I just made the rounds of the local stores. You are correct in that most stores stock 4-6 blisters but the big stores carried as many as a dozen! I picked up 25 for Martin, 25 for myself (I just got into the habit!) and have a line on about 8 more that are a little too far out to get incidentally. I have been told that no more will be coming in until the Christmas shipment but the new shipments arriving at Kmart are the Crusaders and Pirates so I don't know if the Romans will be around much longer.
Gepetto
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I guess i am having a hard time understanding why the blisters are not being realized in other areas ? Just the Fred Meyer store has the Romans ? Crusaders only at some Kmarts ? this is just odd. any body else find any anywhere?
Thanks Martin for finding that quote :wow:
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The debate which was split off from this topic is now here:
http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2598.0 (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2598.)
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The debate which was split off from this topic is now here:
http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2598.0 (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2598.)
Thanks, Sylvia, Martin's original post is pure once more! :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee:
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To anyone:
I received the new Roman blister after a trade with Gepetto.
I was impressed with how the legionary's painted design covers both front and back. Is he the only clicky like that?
-Tim
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I was impressed with how the legionary's painted design covers both front and back. Is he the only clicky like that?
-Tim
The Spanish soldiers in the Pirate theme are also printed front & back, and at least one older figure I have is the Pierrot clown (white body, black printing on front & back). I think some of the racing drivers and cyclists may also have back printing, but I don't have the time to check right now.
I don't know why thay haven't done this more if the machines are capable of it, except I guess it costs a little more. It'd be nice on Specials, but I'm hoping it's a practise that will increase.
My back-print Romans all have red cloaks so you can't see the back printing - I've considered replacing the cloak with a red scarf or neckerchief, but I think they need something round the neck to look right.
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The new policeman Special has printing front and back, reflective stripes and POLICE, while fire fighters have had reflective stripes printed on the back since the new range appeared in 1996. The THW figures have printing front, back, on the arms and all round the legs, surely a record.
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The armor depicted on the "original legionary" isn't really laminated ("segmentata"), though, but more like a scale armor. It does resemble the armor worn by a Visigothic chief in Osprey's "The Germanic Warriors"... I'll try to get a custom out...
In the Osprey book, the german chief wears blue pants with a red stripe, unbloused over top of black boots. Would almost match the civil war klicky legs, except those have bloused pants. Guess I could paint something...
I guess it doesn't really matter. I have no idea what Osprey's source for that costume was, other than probably the surviving armor. I like the look though. I'm a little tired of those fur boots.
-Tim
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I don't know why thay haven't done this more if the machines are capable of it, except I guess it costs a little more. It'd be nice on Specials, but I'm hoping it's a practise that will increase.
My back-print Romans all have red cloaks so you can't see the back printing - I've considered replacing the cloak with a red scarf or neckerchief, but I think they need something round the neck to look right.
I agree that having the printing on the back is very nice. I wish they had done that with the regular Roman klickies. :(
I'd personally hate to cover up that back printing with a cloak, so I'd opt for the scarf or neckerchief idea, as he does indeed look odd without something on his neck. I plan to order some white ruffled clown collars for my new conquistadors as their bare necks look odd too.
The Roman Special wears odd armor, but I kind of like it, even though it's not completely authentic. The shoulders resemble the segmentata but the body parts look like large scales or small plates. Starting in the late Third Century, large scale armor began to appear and mail became popular again as the segmentata faded away. (See the Osprey Praetorian book with the Guardsmen under, I think, Caracalla). Of course this is when the Empire started its decline. As I've written in other threads, I'd give the Roman Special the red scarf in some of the Western sets and a red oval shield and make him part of the Emperor's German Guard or a German auxiliary cavalryman. Also, in my opinion, the Roman Centurion Special is better as an enemy or ally of Rome rather than a Roman!
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I plan to order some white ruffled clown collars for my new conquistadors as their bare necks look odd too.
Hehe, I just did that, and they just arrived! ;D Oval shields too for the Germans.
I agree, I'm going to switch red cloaks for scarves, which I should already have plenty of.
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Hehe, I just did that, and they just arrived! ;D Oval shields too for the Germans.
I agree, I'm going to switch red cloaks for scarves, which I should already have plenty of.
We must see your Germans, Martin.
Actually, you told me about some Lord of the Rings customs that you did that would be great if you could post even if not finished.
Justin, Martin, do either of you know whether the Romans recruited Ethiopians into their auxiliary? The first prefect of Egypt during the time of Augustus raided Ethiopia and reached a truce with them, but I can find absolutely no information beyond a few paragraphs in my book on Augustus.
-Tim
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Justin, Martin, do either of you know whether the Romans recruited Ethiopians into their auxiliary? The first prefect of Egypt during the time of Augustus raided Ethiopia and reached a truce with them, but I can find absolutely no information beyond a few paragraphs in my book on Augustus.
I can't recall specifically hearing about Ethiopian auxiliaries, but I would think Rome must have recruited some. Perhaps the Ethiopians didn't serve in Europe, but there must have been some in Africa and/or the East. Do I smell a new custom, Tim? ;)
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I can't recall specifically hearing about Ethiopian auxiliaries, but I would think Rome must have recruited some. Perhaps the Ethiopians didn't serve in Europe, but there must have been some in Africa and/or the East. Do I smell a new custom, Tim? ;)
Golly, I missed this question. I haven't seen any references to Ethiopians in the Roman Army in any of the books I've read, including Asterix.
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The Roman blister packs arrived at my local Targets within the last few days. I told myself I wouldn't buy any, yet right now I have about 25 packs after raiding 4 Targets! After I buying some I told myself I wouldn't buy more than 20 plus officers, but now my goal is 40 plus officers. :yup: I'm not sure what I'll use them for, but I'm thinking of using the centurions as enemies of Rome and the legionaries as marines.
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The Roman blister packs arrived at my local Targets within the last few days. I told myself I wouldn't buy any, yet right now I have about 25 packs after raiding 4 Targets! After I buying some I told myself I wouldn't buy more than 20 plus officers, but now my goal is 40 plus officers. :yup: I'm not sure what I'll use them for, but I'm thinking of using the centurions as enemies of Rome and the legionaries as marines.
LOL! Yup, I really like these blister guys that Gepetto so kindly got for me - only an month and I'll be in Houston, potentially grabbing 25 packs of Crusaders if I can get them.
The question is will I be getting more Roman Blisters too, plus the Elves-in-underpants sets? With the £ dropping from about $1.90 to $1.50 in the last few months, the prices are not such a bargain as they were, though still slightly cheaper then the UK. I've probably got enough Romans, but if I see them it'll be hard to resist.
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only an month and I'll be in Houston, potentially grabbing 25 packs of Crusaders if I can get them.
The question is will I be getting more Roman Blisters too, plus the Elves-in-underpants sets? I've probably got enough Romans, but if I see them it'll be hard to resist.
It is a slippery slope isn't it? I was content with the Romans and Crusaders until Target had all the sets on sale and I bought 1 set of the Elves-in-underpants just to see. Now I think a small 'forest guard' of 10 would be all right.... or will it?
Gepetto
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It is a slippery slope isn't it? I was content with the Romans and Crusaders until Target had all the sets on sale and I bought 1 set of the Elves-in-underpants just to see. Now I think a small 'forest guard' of 10 would be all right.... or will it?
Gepetto
Indeed.
I'm currently slipping down the slope of the Egyptians. My favourite eBay seller play-123 has all the Egyptian figures available, sometimes singly, sometimes in sets of five. I was going to hold out until they're in the UK shops, but I know I'll want to top up the boxed sets with some extra figures, so why not do it now?
So there's about 13 different groups or individuals available that I'm interested in, and I'm eventually going to want, ooh, 15-20 of each soldier, right?
For now I'm limiting myself to one maximum five of each figure, but I'm sure to want more later.
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Play-123's prices on the Egyptians are indeed quite good! Like Martin, I wanted to wait until they were officially released here, but I may not make it. :)
I've been contemplating how I want to organize my Egyptian army. I was thinking of making the breastplated klickies hand to hand combat infantry and giving them helmets and shields. I would then make the Egyptians with shoulder armor into archers and give them headbands. But perhaps I should mix and match armor and helmet types? And then there's the matter of color. Part of me wants to make multiple groups, each in a different color, but then part of me wants to mix it up, which would probably be more authentic. What are you planning to do?
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I don't know a whole lot about Ramses-era Egyptian tactics, but the chariot archers were accompanied by light men on foot who dispatched the wounded and rescued the charioteers caught in melee.
Ramses had four armies that he fielded on the march against the Hittites that ended in near-disaster-turned-victory in the valley of Megiddo. Each army had its own name, though I don't remember whether they were specialized different from each other.
Egyptian foot soldiers were a conscripted, sorry lot paid with plunder. They weren't well equipped at all--shield and crescent sword (or clubs or whatever). As the Egyptian empire grew more prosperous, they recruited more mercenaries (Nubians, Assyrians, even Myceneans). But the mercenary corps were led by Egyptian officers. Military became a prestigious occupation, and a step up into or beyond the middle class, if you could afford a chariot. Chariots were light enough for a man to carry and crossing rivers, they floated the chariots across.
As for source material, I have a couple of books in the basement, but I am obviously quite fuzzy with my details (writing from memory right now). Most "Daily Life in Egypt" type coffee-table books usually dedicate a chapter, especially with respect to Ramses and his famous campaign.
The Nubians conquered Egypt several times. A black pharoah could be a fun custom if you want to tap history.
I'm guessing PM is targeting the Ramsses era, but like with the Romans, who really can tell?
-Tim
Play-123's prices on the Egyptians are indeed quite good! Like Martin, I wanted to wait until they were officially released here, but I may not make it. :)
I've been contemplating how I want to organize my Egyptian army. I was thinking of making the breastplated klickies hand to hand combat infantry and giving them helmets and shields. I would then make the Egyptians with shoulder armor into archers and give them headbands. But perhaps I should mix and match armor and helmet types? And then there's the matter of color. Part of me wants to make multiple groups, each in a different color, but then part of me wants to mix it up, which would probably be more authentic. What are you planning to do?
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I don't know that much about Egypt either, but with Playmobil's Egyptians I'm primarily trying to recreate Meroe, which was in the present day Sudan and basically took over Egyptian culture when the Greeks took over Egypt. Meroe was somewhat of an enemy of Rome in both the Republic and Empire periods, although both mostly enjoyed a peaceful trade relationship. There were, however many skirmishes and some battles between the two, although no real wars.
There are somewhat conflicting views of Meroitic armies depending on the source. On the one hand, I've read that Meroitic warriors were well organized and equipped and that the culture produced great quantities of iron. On the other hand, there is one Roman account of a battle with Meroitic warriors who were supposedly armed only with hide shields and spears and no armor and poor organization. With Playmobil's Egyptians, one could recreate both depictions or some combination.
Based on the Osprey books I have, Playmobil's Egyptians are way, way over-armored, regardless of the period. Only the wealthy charioteer archers would have worn armor and had helmets. The bulk of the Egyptian army was modestly equipped (bow, arrows, and maybe a knife for archers and a hide covered wooden shield and spear, ax, mace, or kopesh sword for the hand to hand combat infantry) and wore no armor or helmets. They might have had padded headgear and loincloths in the New Kingdom. While Playmobil's Egyptian shields, weapons, and, to a degree, armor seems fairly accurate, their infantry helmets don't seem to be based on any Egyptian helmet I've ever seen. A cloth headdress would be more accurate, but the helmets would be of great use for other armies. I may even use them for my Egyptian/Meroitic army.
Playmobil seems to be setting their Egyptian theme in the New Kingdom, although the shields seem to me more from the Middle Kingdom.
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What I know about Egyptian armies could be written on a post-it note.
I'm hoping to learn more through Playmobil. For now I'm just getting 5-10 of each soldier figure, and I'll work out the organisation later. I'll hopefully keep it a lot smaller than my Roman Army, maybe 50 footsoldiers, 15 archers and 3 charioteers.
Shall I split this off and start an Egyptian Army thread, as we're getting off-topic?
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Interesting question, Martin ...
Shall I split this off and start an Egyptian Army thread, as we're getting off-topic?
I've been trying to figure out how this entire topic was actually a "NEWS" item. But, then on the other hand, where should it have been placed? Maybe "Collector's Corner" should be expanded to include relevant chit-chat?
Actually, all this historical discussion stuff could very easily be linked over to GW-PC, rather than our asking Sylvia to create an "Historical Discussion" board here at PF.
And, BTW, there was a discussion about the Nubian Black Pharoahs HERE (http://gardenwargaming.playclicks.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.30) ... With pictures!
All the best,
Richard
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Elves-in-underpants
Hi all,
I am enjoying the history lesson posted here :yup:. It is very interesting, the great things you can do with a simple figure and accessories, or custom stuff.
What is the elves-in-underpants set? I know that is a loaded question so be gentle, I'm an old man ;D.
Best regards,
Jimbo
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:yup:i just wish playmobil would produce pirates as fantastic as the romans are.
:)it was great to see how they were historically careful.
maybe they could do the same with "my" pirates and sailors and soldiers instead of adding a totally historically-wrong spanish army and turning a lot of the new pirates into red and black dressed guys. :'(
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I'm hoping to learn more through Playmobil. For now I'm just getting 5-10 of each soldier figure, and I'll work out the organisation later. I'll hopefully keep it a lot smaller than my Roman Army, maybe 50 footsoldiers, 15 archers and 3 charioteers.
My research indicates that Egyptian infantry were organized into groups of 200-250 with an officer, a standard bearer, and a trumpet player for sounding and relaying commands. These 200-250 man groups would be all archers or all hand to hand combat infantry. Given this information, it seems there is no strict number or organizational rules to follow, so we'll get a (welcome?) break from the 80 man centuries, 6 century cohorts, and 10 cohort legions that many of us are trying to represent.
My current plan is to keep my Egyptian/Meroitic army relatively small with two hand to hand combat infantry groups, each with 20 men, an officer, a standard bearer, and a trumpeter, and one or two similar archer groups. The number of men or groups may, however, grow. ;) I'll get 1-3 chariots, but I haven't decided if I'll have a cavalry wing or not.
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:yup:i just wish playmobil would produce pirates as fantastic as the romans are.
:)it was great to see how they were historically careful.
maybe they could do the same with "my" pirates and sailors and soldiers instead of adding a totally historically-wrong spanish army and turning a lot of the new pirates into red and black dressed guys. :'(
I think Playmobil has done a decent job with the mostly discontinued French soldiers and the new Spanish soldiers (except for the one officer), although I would have preferred removable body armor with the latter. The pirates are a mixed bag and are all over the place in terms of time periods.
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What is the elves-in-underpants set? I know that is a loaded question so be gentle, I'm an old man ;D.
Best regards,
Jimbo
The set is 5831, the elf in question is the one on the right, I think Kelly first coined the phrase but I could not find the post.
Gepetto
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The set is 5831, the elf in question is the one on the right, I think Kelly first coined the phrase but I could not find the post.
It was indeed Kelly ... click HERE (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2446.msg27554#msg27554) ... :lol:
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way to go - Kelly !!!
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The set is 5831, the elf in question is the one on the right
Gepetto
Thanks, Gepetto, Richard, and Kelly.
That clears the mystery up for me. I thought it might have been a new set I
missed. ;D
Thanks again,
Jimbo
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Play-123's prices on the Egyptians are indeed quite good! Like Martin, I wanted to wait until they were officially released here, but I may not make it. :)
How do you locate Play-123? I've checked American and UK ebays. Or maybe I'm assuming falsely that she is a shop.
But, the year delay for Egyptians buys me a little time...
I'm going to leisurely get the Romans I still want in the year I have left. My "huge" army of about 90 officers and men sounds paltry compared to the 250 man norms around here! But, at 90, I actually have more than I can handle. I just aspire to beef my archer "century" up to a healthy 18 men (from 7)(and probably I won't accomplish it).
I feel like a bonafide Roman cavalry quartermaster. No matter how many horses I have, I'm always short (Numidians, Praetorians, and regular Roman cavalries, like their real equivalents, find a quarter of their troop tagging along on foot).
-Tim
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:) how to find play-123, tim:
- log in to ebay;
- then click on the "community" button (top right)
- in the "find a member" box enter the user id "play-123"
- enter the verification security code
- select the first option - the exact match "play-123"
- select "items for sale"
- get disappointed with the lack of items he has to offer...(very few pirates) ;)
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:) how to find play-123, tim:
- log in to ebay;
- then click on the "community" button (top right)
- in the "find a member" box enter the user id "play-123"
- enter the verification security code
- select the first option - the exact match "play-123"
- select "items for sale"
- get disappointed with the lack of items he has to offer...(very few pirates) ;)
Thanks Cachalote!
Their prices seem reasonable, now I can go broke internationally not just domestically!
Gepetto
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But, the year delay for Egyptians buys me a little time...
I'm going to leisurely get the Romans I still want in the year I have left. My "huge" army of about 90 officers and men sounds paltry compared to the 250 man norms around here! But, at 90, I actually have more than I can handle. I just aspire to beef my archer "century" up to a healthy 18 men (from 7)(and probably I won't accomplish it).
I feel like a bonafide Roman cavalry quartermaster. No matter how many horses I have, I'm always short (Numidians, Praetorians, and regular Roman cavalries, like their real equivalents, find a quarter of their troop tagging along on foot).
-Tim
Yes, in some ways it might be a good think that the Egyptians won't be here for a year. :)
I bought WAY too many Romans! (I'm pushing 400 with everything.) I wish I had half of what I do, as it takes too much time to set them up and move them. That said, I don't think I want to get rid of any. ;)
I'm pretty well set for horses, but I'm having trouble getting capes for my Praetorian cavalry.
Tim, you should definitely try to have one full "century" of archers. Are your "centuries" made up of 18 men?
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Yes, in some ways it might be a good think that the Egyptians won't be here for a year. :)
I bought WAY too many Romans! (I'm pushing 400 with everything.) I wish I had half of what I do, as it takes too much time to set them up and move them. That said, I don't think I want to get rid of any. ;)
I'm pretty well set for horses, but I'm having trouble getting capes for my Praetorian cavalry.
Tim, you should definitely try to have one full "century" of archers. Are your "centuries" made up of 18 men?
18 was a number I pulled out of my ear. I actually prefer 24 -- 4 rows of 6 columns creates a nice, broad front without eating all my table space. But yeah, my 7 archers looks anemic. Am disappointed PM made those guys so hard to come by. I think I just need to hit DS every month with an order solely for archers and yellow shorts guys until I get the quantity I want. (If I pad out my orders with other stuff to get better shipping, I'll wind up getting everything but the archers and yellow shorts guys).
BTW, 18 (2 cols of 9 men) is what Playmobil deploys in its movie for "The Wooden Sword."
PS. I think I'm going to tear down my Auxiliary fort and replace it with my 16th century castle (Sheffield Manor) from last year. The castle was gripping, whereas my Roman scenes just have not taken root.
Maybe I'll give it one more go. "Saturnalia in Britain" might give me an inspiration for the Christmas break. I have a Roman family (the spouse of a legate or tribune) and I have market material. The hardest thing to square is the fact that a regular camp is too huge to depict on a table, whereas a fortlet is unlikely to be something a legate would ever see the inside of. (or I could resume the premise of a fortlet, run by a centurion with a local wife--that could work).
Hard getting the Romans to come to life. Everything takes so much thinking and ingenuity to look good. I've tried making several villas from steck, but they have to be augmented with paper, or wood, to have the look and feel.
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Hello, Timmy ...
... "The Wooden Sword."
Hard getting the Romans to come to life. Everything takes so much thinking and ingenuity to look good. I've tried making several villas from steck, but they have to be augmented with paper, or wood, to have the look and feel.
As you probably already know, in Bart's movie (The Wooden Sword"), he used available System-X parts for all the Roman buildings. Only the colors were changed.
see attachments
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Hi Richard,
Ah, yes! I challenge you to order parts from PM USA to construct one complete villa / "insula" that matches a building in the movie.
If you succeed, we all benefit by your example.
If you fail, you understand the plight of folks like me and Justin.
-Tim
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Ha! I can neither succeed nor fail!
Hi Richard,
Ah, yes! I challenge you to order parts from PM USA to construct one complete villa / "insula" that matches a building in the movie.
If you succeed, we all benefit by your example.
If you fail, you understand the plight of folks like me and Justin.
-Tim
I am in the Virgin Islands, Timmy!
I cannot order didley squat from Playmobil USA DS ... :klickygrin:
All I can tell you is that my understanding is that Bart constructed ALL of the buildings from available System-X parts to use as models for his animations. (He said that only the colors were different.)
So, the challenge is yours, Timmy ... :klickywink:
Good luck and all the best,
Richard
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I cannot order didley squat from Playmobil USA DS ... :klickygrin:
Heh, we on the continental US are almost in the same boat. Ask my brother in misery Justindo.
Ordering from USA DS is like trying to order the interesting stuff from the menu of a Chinese restaurant.
"Don't have. Don't have. Sorry, don't have that either."
Did Bart draw from his privately-owned inventory or have access to Playmobil's research-and-development toy chest?
-Tim
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Ordering from USA DS is like trying to order the interesting stuff from the menu of a Chinese restaurant.
"Don't have. Don't have. Sorry, don't have that either."
That's very funny, Timmy ... :lol:
Did Bart draw from his privately-owned inventory or have access to Playmobil's research-and-development toy chest?
Bart has always been very creative with System-X.
Click on the image below and also click HERE (http://www.collectobil.com/collectofun/systemx/2003april.html), HERE (http://www.collectobil.com/collectofun/systemx/2003february.html) and HERE (http://www.collectobil.com/collectofun/systemx/2003january.html) for a few of Bart's System-X creations!
(http://www.collectobil.com/collectofun/systemx/images/2003_07_tiefighter.jpg) (http://www.collectobil.com/collectofun/systemx/2003july.html)
click on image above
All the best,
Richard
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18 was a number I pulled out of my ear. I actually prefer 24 -- 4 rows of 6 columns creates a nice, broad front without eating all my table space. But yeah, my 7 archers looks anemic. Am disappointed PM made those guys so hard to come by. I think I just need to hit DS every month with an order solely for archers and yellow shorts guys until I get the quantity I want. (If I pad out my orders with other stuff to get better shipping, I'll wind up getting everything but the archers and yellow shorts guys).
BTW, 18 (2 cols of 9 men) is what Playmobil deploys in its movie for "The Wooden Sword."
PS. I think I'm going to tear down my Auxiliary fort and replace it with my 16th century castle (Sheffield Manor) from last year. The castle was gripping, whereas my Roman scenes just have not taken root.
Maybe I'll give it one more go. "Saturnalia in Britain" might give me an inspiration for the Christmas break. I have a Roman family (the spouse of a legate or tribune) and I have market material. The hardest thing to square is the fact that a regular camp is too huge to depict on a table, whereas a fortlet is unlikely to be something a legate would ever see the inside of. (or I could resume the premise of a fortlet, run by a centurion with a local wife--that could work).
Hard getting the Romans to come to life. Everything takes so much thinking and ingenuity to look good. I've tried making several villas from steck, but they have to be augmented with paper, or wood, to have the look and feel.
I ordered 39 archers and 39 auxiliary troops with sandals from an e-bay seller's store in Germany that no longer seems to be selling anything. The price and shipping with the exchange rate wasn't cheap, but I'm glad I got them. Playmobil really should have had a 3 archer pack as an Add-On, as I think it would have been a big seller. Direct Service is always out of the klickies I want, to say nothing of the Roman building parts. :'(
It would be great to have one or two more photo stories with your auxiliary fort, Tim! :) I like the idea of "Saturnalia in Britain" and I wouldn't worry too much about scale. It's Playmobil, so 20 man "centuries" are fine, a legate and his wife commanding a few "centuries" would be okay, especially if they are mixed troops, and a military structure somewhere between a fortlet and a fort in size would be acceptable.
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All I can tell you is that my understanding is that Bart constructed ALL of the buildings from available System-X parts to use as models for his animations. (He said that only the colors were different.)
My inference was that the parts do not exist in the movie colours, so you could build the building shapes if you had the parts, but you'd have to paint it to get the right colours.