PlaymoFriends
General => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: Gustavo on August 02, 2008, 15:58:20
-
I'm seriously thinking of splitting the Knights theme into pre- and post-2004, when System X and the Lion and Dragon knights started. They're getting more and more different from the basic knights-in-shining-armour idea. Not necessarily bad, just not the same theme, and the Wolf knights are continuing along the same trend. I bet little boys will eat them up.
Most of us like Playmobil historical medieval lines (pre-2004). Kids, however, who have been growing with movies like "The Lord of the Rings" (Peter Jackson's version) & "Chronicles of Narnya" will like to play with fantasy medieval lines (post-2004).
Playmobil continues to produce historical medieval bits (Specials), maybe in order to try to please collectors (?), but it isn't enough.
Should this splitting be done by Playmobil? Most of us miss (deeply) historical knights & civil Middle Ages, that marks the first days of Playmobil, back in the 1970s and '80s ...
Why does it happen? Are they afraid that historical lines won't sell? Won't they?
Maybe the designers team was instructed to go into fantasy?
Heather noted that before 2004, the medieval line had one feature, and after, it went into another. It has impact in the collectors community, not in the commercial sector. They will be successful (I really believe so), no matter what they produce.
I decided to propose this thread so as to open a space where we could think together some of these issues, that affect many of us, possibly in many different ways.
:blackhair:
-
The problem extends well beyond the Knights theme.
Any leather footwear that isn't black or a shade of brown or tan should be unheard of before at least 1800, yet we have vikings, knight, pirates, gauls and others wearing red, orange, purple, pink, gold and Hans Beck knows what else colours of footwear.
Clothing is similarly overly garish and Fisher Priced, in eras when they just didn't have the dyeing technology to acheieve those colours.
Playmobil have sacrificed their position as a toy that is both fun to play with AND educational, to being merely fun to play with if you can ignore the awful colours.
It's really sad, and I don't want to think about it any more.
-
Come on, Martin ... It isn't so bad as that. Orange boots may be thought to be leather ... Purple in vikings isn't so problematic (I even think the Vikings collection to be very natural, and little agressive ... It is a pleasant collection, historically speaking : of course, not accurate as a perfect reproduction, but even the Playmo "Merry Men" aren't that accurate, and we are all (I dare say) very pleased with it, and I really think that the problem with colours came after the Vikings collection ...)
Then again, Romans are recent, and there's no problem with their colours. And Egyptians are about to come, and everyone's enjoying it, so, in a way, we have a problem mainly with Knights and absence of civil Middle Ages and (I agree with you that not only with Middle Ages ...) with some aspects in the Pirates collections, that seem to have been lacking red coats (specially in what concerns ships; someone noticed, once, that there's always only pirate ships) ...
Gus
:blackhair:
-
I keep reading peoples dislike of certain sets and colors and i will admit i was very dissatisfied with the many pirate ships colors . I have always thought it was not the color but the tones that were chosen . I thought it was a more recent situation but now that i look around my collection i see odd colors in every theme .
I have to remind myself ( over and over again ) its a toy for kids that needs to attract the attention of the mass market parents . If playmobil was to make things realistic it would look dull and boring and could not sell and untimely end the company . Children like colors and if making a toy brighter keeps their attention for 30 second longer, well you have happier parents .
The people who really do not like a set can always not buy the sets and let Playmobil know how they feel . Playmobil looks at $'s , after all it is a business that needs to generate a profit not happy collectors . I also feel that if the collector circle continues to insult Playmobil at this point in the new ( if any ) relationship it will further put distance between us . You do not insult a date on the first few dates now do you ( actually i still find it difficult to insult my wife of 8 years with out getting in trouble :-[ )
The knight, pirate, construction, and other themes have been run for a very long time . Soon or later you have to change something or else it becomes repetitive .
and at last thought - we do have paint to cover up the bling :confetti:
-
I keep reading peoples dislike of certain sets and colors and i will admit i was very dissatisfied with the many pirate ships colors . I have always thought it was not the color but the tones that were chosen . I thought it was a more recent situation but now that i look around my collection i see odd colors in every theme .
I have to remind myself ( over and over again ) its a toy for kids that needs to attract the attention of the mass market parents . If playmobil was to make things realistic it would look dull and boring and could not sell and untimely end the company . Children like colors and if making a toy brighter keeps their attention for 30 second longer, well you have happier parents .
The people who really do not like a set can always not buy the sets and let Playmobil know how they feel . Playmobil looks at $'s , after all it is a business that needs to generate a profit not happy collectors . I also feel that if the collector circle continues to insult Playmobil at this point in the new ( if any ) relationship it will further put distance between us . You do not insult a date on the first few dates now do you ( actually i still find it difficult to insult my wife of 8 years with out getting in trouble :-[ )
The knight, pirate, construction, and other themes have been run for a very long time . Soon or later you have to change something or else it becomes repetitive .
and at last thought - we do have paint to cover up the bling :confetti:
Lol Rofl ,
very very good and strong argumentation
on all points
I also wonder why people keep being unsatisfied with the new sets
from the last years
I think no matter wot playmobil brings out , there allways will be people who have remarks
as Rasputin pointed out , we must not forget it's a TOY for kids
I cannot help it I never grew up ;) ;D
from steck to system X ,that's evolution , weather we like it or not
they are both great systems to build with , you just need a lot of it
when I see the great contsructions made in System x by other fans ,AMAZING
as for the figures
Most people I meet have fun in dismanteling a figure and create a new and personal one
where would the fun be if playmo provided all those figures ?
Playmobil has sooooo many parts ( I mostly look at a set in parts)
just any toughts
-
Any leather footwear that isn't black or a shade of brown or tan should be unheard of before at least 1800, yet we have vikings, knight, pirates, gauls and others wearing red, orange, purple, pink, gold and Hans Beck knows what else colours of footwear.
Clothing is similarly overly garish and Fisher Priced, in eras when they just didn't have the dyeing technology to acheieve those colours.
Playmobil have sacrificed their position as a toy that is both fun to play with AND educational, to being merely fun to play with if you can ignore the awful colours.
Hi Martin the above isn't completely accurately stated. Medievals did have sophisticated dyeing techniques (consider the commonness of the last name Dyar and Dyer). Some colors were difficult to achieve (a certain shade of blue came from pressing thousands of tiny crustaceans). But others were easily obtainable. Once you mixed the color, you dipped the cloth in, and that was that.
So, it's not correct to assume the medievals were dour, colorless bunch. On the contrary, when you consider our fondness for stone gray buildings, we modernites may be the dour bunch.
-Tim
-
Hi Martin the above isn't completely accurately stated. Medievals did have sophisticated dyeing techniques (consider the commonness of the last name Dyar and Dyer). Some colors were difficult to achieve (a certain shade of blue came from pressing thousands of tiny crustaceans). But others were easily obtainable. Once you mixed the color, you dipped the cloth in, and that was that.
So, it's not correct to assume the medievals were dour, colorless bunch. On the contrary, when you consider our fondness for stone gray buildings, we modernites may be the dour bunch.
-Tim
Well I don't mind the colourful clothing nearly as much as the boots, I was just having a rant.
-
I actually like that new dragon a lot. I hated the old dragon so much that I've avoided bothering to buy it.
But I agree with Heather's notion to reclassify knights produced after 2004.
The old knight stuff was "medieval theme"; the new stuff, beginning with those Starship Trooper Green Dragon Knights is more like a male-oriented version of the fairy-tale castle series.
(Black is mine ...)
It has a lot to do with this discussion.
It's very interesting to see appear new styles of "knights" (Ritter ... don't know the plural form ...)
But it's as well interesting to us, collectors, to learn to classify them correctly, once Playmobil classifies them all as "knights" and, well, collectors (I, myself), many times expected "Merry Men" kind of knights (=historical), and was a bit sad about the coming of other kind of knights (=fantasy), which, however, is "the latest fashion" in the cinema for children (...).
About your comments, Rasputin, it's very interesting what you said about our attitudes concerning the relationship between the collectors communities and the producer. Thanks for bringing that.
Maybe I shouldn't have titled this thread as "problem" but "question" or "issue(s)" ...
Maybe it's more a problem of some collectors. But it's something that we may think, I believe. So as to have our own collections directed ... (Not all of us can get everything Playmobil produces ...) Martin asked not long ago "when is a collection complete?", for example ... So, it's questions that come around in our minds, turned to the little klicky smiling guys in blue boxes :) ...
Maybe it has been only a problem for us (at least to me) to classify[/distinguish] the "knights" theme, that [recently has been bringing a new feature: fantasy. And we might (might we?) consider that historic medieval Playmo is being discontinued?
Not so, I believe, but, if things continue like this, it might come to it, I think. I don't believe this will happen, but I can't help saying that I am a bit afraid ...
However, Specials tend to look like historic, some of them ... (Medieval ones, and some others.) (& There's everything in the Specials catalogue, and this is the idea ...) And, somehow, Playmobil shows efforts of pleasing even the most demanding collectors. (Because some of us are demanding, and don't accept simply anything that is launched, no matter that it's for kids, that they're a company, that they have a market ... We are their market too, even if, sometimes, a bit ... bitter, in our demandings, frustrations, wishes, dreams ...)
I think it is so because children (until certain ages) don't complain ... Complaining is something of adults (...). Except Michael ;D (I'm kidding ;) )
More thoughts ...
::) ]
Gus
:blackhair:
-
Another question would be "Why some themes had/have to be discontinued?"
(Vikings, e.g., to mention only one)
Gus
:blackhair:
-
I think it is so because children (until certain ages) don't complain ... Complaining is something of adults (...). Except Michael ;D (I'm kidding ;) )
More thoughts ...
::) ]
Gus
:blackhair:
Lol Thank you Gus ;)
-
Complaining, constructive criticism, or customer feedback?
I have thought of Playmobil as a great toy to support education, because the details were spot on. Now they're not in some themes, so it loses that aspect (and my respect) and becomes just another toy. Still a very well made toy, but closer to MegaBloks, Fisher Price, Pyrates and the rest.
Why are themes discontinued? To make room for new ones, once sales have dropped off. Playmobil did pretty much everything they could with the Vikings, so they moved on. The Romans will eventually be fazed out, as will the Egyptians, but something new and hopefully exciting will replace them.
Pirates and Knights and Hospital and Fire Service etc have stayed in the line up for decades, but the old themes are just re-hashed. The Spanish Conquistadores are a very welcome addition to the Pirates theme as they take things in a whole new direction.
-
Complaining, constructive criticism, or customer feedback?
I have thought of Playmobil as a great toy to support education, because the details were spot on. Now they're not in some themes, so it loses that aspect (and my respect) and becomes just another toy. Still a very well made toy, but closer to MegaBloks, Fisher Price, Pyrates and the rest.
I agree with your commentary, Martin.
And would add: "It's for the kids, guys" is, like patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel!
A lot of my historical research is inspired by Playmobil's seeding. As for the effect on kids? The King Arthur knight theme in the 1970s (the medieval stuff that hit the states was very King Arthur) led me to read about King Arthur as a child and eventually trackdown Le Morte d'Arthur by Malory as a teenager. So I think there is value in Playmobil retaining some connection either to history or literature.
These new fantasy knights are cute, but by necessity lack details--there are no details! Some design team at Geobra yanked it out of their noses. These won't inspire kids to read anything because there is nothing to read about them.
Schleich and Papo seem to be having success with historically based molded knights. Probably the gruesome detail is that Playmobil has exhausted its ideas for the knight themes but it sells too well to discontinue. Playmobil has a policy against licensing contemporary entertainment (a likely good thing) so its response is an off-the-wall generic fantasy environment, the design concept of which is neo-Pokemon.
I like the fairy theme a lot (the one with the garden fairies); maybe because it follows the image of old-fashioned European pixies that I grew up with.
These new knights with their funky catapults don't have an identity. Just contemporary children's toys.
-
Honestly, playmofriends, I proposed this topic because I was very intrigued by Heather's thought about [splitting the knights theme (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2436.msg27308#msg27308)] in the Db.
We have a lot of complaints, but I think we can't be unfair ...
& I think I have, after all, my answer to Heather's dilema, "to split or not to split?", my version of the case.
Concerning this thread, I think that if we consider the attached sets, currently available: (...)
-
(...) including the ones attached below,
I'd dare say that there still is medieval Playmobil after 2004.
This is my thought, concerning this matter.
Thanks for the opinions of all of you guys, who gave your thoughts on this matter.
Gus
:blackhair:
[Ps.
In my opinion, Heather, if you can manage somehow to make the knights to be in one section until future release(s) of new castles, it'd be wiser.
The new styles proposed by Playmobil are different, but we still can't say where it's going to take us, and I don't despise (or I want to believe) that they consider the collectors sector of their market (...)
As well as I'd wait to see how Playmobil will display and classify their fantasy knights in their own site, once they begin to appear. Very possibly there will be some sort of difference between fantasy knights and medieval castles, unless they became a bunch complete fools. So, my advice, if I may, would be to wait a bit.
But its discussion that we'll probably come back to, until they make any new move in Playmobil.com ...
Gus
:blackhair:
]
-
I think you're rather being harsh with Geobra. Lately they have been producing a lot of "Historic correct" sets - the entire hospital range, police, Romans, Egypts, etc. So, now they're having some fun with fantasy. Well, I'm with them. I love them all - including the new Ghost pirates. Lord knows I'd wanted a ghost pirate ship when I was a kid. The only complaint I've got is that they're about 20+ years late ;)
But better late then never.
IMHO Playmobil is all about fantasy, even though for some it's more extreme then for others.
Oh, and Gustavo; you're wrong about MacGayver when you said you were kidding. Macgayver is a big kid; I only wish I was more like him :love:
Bogro
-
I think you're rather being harsh with Geobra. Lately they have been producing a lot of "Historic correct" sets - the entire hospital range, police, Romans, Egypts, etc.
Hi Bogro--
You're correct and I caught myself a couple of days ago. The hospital and zoo and the Egyptians are as close to meticulous for detail as you will find from a children's toy.
I guess the real problem: a lot of us had soft spots for the medieval line. It was my favorite before I moved on to the Romans. Also a lot of us recent collectors missed the great 1990s medieval sets and maybe are a little bitter.
To Gus:
The pictures you provided of the black knight and the red dragon knights aren't such bad offenders. Except for the huge, two-bladed battle axe, their equipment is realistic enough. The red dragon knight, with his bowman and footmen, reminds me how when British knights answered the call to campaign they had to bring an allotment of archers and infantry with them.
-Tim
-
Playmobil is all about fantasy, even though for some it's more extreme then for others.
Oh, and Gustavo; you're wrong about MacGayver when you said you were kidding. Macgayver is a big kid; I only wish I was more like him :love:
Bogro
True
:yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee:
and true
and thank you Bro ;)
-
I think that the dissatisfied need to look a little further back in History. If you were to compare the old 70's Medieval sets with the ones from the 90's you will also notice a shocking difference. New twisting wrists, painted patterns, boots, lots of new weapons, etc... The toy is ever evolving from the 70's simplistic design to the 90's realism and now on to the new frontier
-
When I joined this board, shortly after discovering the Romans Theme, I also joined a couple of Roman re-creationist boards. These are peopled by folks who actually go out in their free time and dress up in the gear, march around etc.
Now to me the Playmobil Roman Legionnaries look good, you can't look at one and not know immediately what he represents. Things get a bit wobblier with the officers, signifers etc, but with a bit of organisation, as Tim has shown, you can create a very realistic arm, and Playmobil did a very sound job.
On the re-creationists board you would not believe the moaning there about how inaccurate the Roman Playmobil figures were, wrong helmets, their armour fastened in the wrong place etc. :)
I went to Renaissance Fair in Texas last year - many people there were dressed in costumes that were distinctly NOT of the Renaissance.
I guess many people are very happy with whatever Playmobil produce in the Knights theme, as long as it carries a shield, wears something recognisable as armour, and wields a big weapon!
-
When I joined this board, shortly after discovering the Romans Theme, I also joined a couple of Roman re-creationist boards. These are peopled by folks who actually go out in their free time and dress up in the gear, march around etc.
Now to me the Playmobil Roman Legionnaries look good, you can't look at one and not know immediately what he represents. Things get a bit wobblier with the officers, signifers etc, but with a bit of organisation, as Tim has shown, you can create a very realistic arm, and Playmobil did a very sound job.
On the re-creationists board you would not believe the moaning there about how inaccurate the Roman Playmobil figures were, wrong helmets, their armour fastened in the wrong place etc. :)
While I can somewhat identify with these re-creationists, what they fail to realize is that this is a $3 3" plastic toy! Considering that, I would say the Playmobil Romans are VERY ACCURATE. No, the helmets and armor aren't perfectly accurate and there are, perhaps, a few minor things I would have changed were I the designer, but one can easily tell what each klicky is supposed to be. The upcoming Egyptians look equally accurate.
And yes, I'm bitter about missing out on the late 1990's Medieval and Western themes!
-
Oh, and Gustavo; you're wrong about MacGayver when you said you were kidding. Macgayver is a big kid; I only wish I was more like him :love:
Bogro
I wasn't exactly wrong ... I was only being -- or trying to be -- "polite" ;D . I know you guys for too little time to say things straight[forward] like this ...
& He seems to agree with you completely that my joke was about the truth about him ... I'm happy about it, too. Actually, you, him and Socrates make quite a team! ... :lol:
G.
:blackhair:
-
I would say the Playmobil Romans are VERY ACCURATE.
Except for tha fact that human beings' heads aren't completely round ...
And they miss a nose! It's horrible! Roman legionaires WITHOUT A NOSE!!!
I believe I don't have to say that I'm completely joking here, but, once this board is read by guests ...
I guess many people are very happy with whatever Playmobil produce in the Knights theme, as long as it carries a shield, wears something recognisable as armour, and wields a big weapon!
However, I agree with you, Martin, that sometimes there's little complaint about things that we might wish different.
&, well, I'm bitter too, about having missed the '90s medieval collection :-[
& more than that, the late '70s steck houses (specially Tailor's House & the Jagerhoff Inn!!!) :-[ :-[ :-[
But I'll have to live with it ... :-\
& move along.
But I'd like to have more real dialogue with geobra Brandstätter. REAL dialogue, not the "I hope they're hearing me" ...
Maybe I'll try to go into Klickywelt forum, although I can't say a line in German ...
It's a bit of a delusional wish, but I'd like to say: "please, REcontinue '70s medieval steck houses, '90s civil medieval guys, Victorian & Vikings, pleeeeease!!!" ... :'(
:hmm:
:P
:toot:
Cheers Bogro,
& cheers all!
Gus
:blackhair:
-
I have to agree with Rasputin that the early figures were just too simplistic for my tastes. When I look back and wonder why I was not hooked before it is easy when I see these early figures, that is one of the reasons I was drawn to Warhammer was the quality of there sculpting and detail. However, I am happy to say that I am pleased with the current state of evolution and detail.
Gepetto
-
I think there's a good case to be made for Playmobil bringing back som eof the older structures - the tailors house, bakery, inn and blacksmith for instance. There must be some market since they came out with the blue house after the red one. If those sell decently at all then it would make sense to continue with other older sets as part of a Classics series. They do it with the vehicles after all. The other house styles would probably sell better than the colored houses actually, since they have unique features that make them playable as a toy.
-
...There must be some market since they came out with the blue house after the red one.
:woohoo:
...and dont forget the yellow one which came after the blue one...
:D
next to this I completely agree with you, Tim, it would be a good time to restart the good old houses...
:yup:
best,
socrates
-
I think there's a good case to be made for Playmobil bringing back some of the older structures - the tailors house, bakery, inn and blacksmith for instance. There must be some market since they came out with the blue house after the red one. If those sell decently at all then it would make sense to continue with other older sets as part of a Classics series. They do it with the vehicles after all. The other house styles would probably sell better than the colored houses actually, since they have unique features that make them playable as a toy.
I too vote to return to the medieval 'Old House' theme. the problem with the new houses is that they are empty. I reccommend seperate sets with towns people and furniture to make the new houses sellable no matter what their color is. Also by adding towns people for the house sets, Castle sets sold are given a reason to exist. I would to have a village or two filled with the different medieval buildings and towns people. And many of the accessories to give a Castle and village that 'lived in' look. I would also like to see Playmobil re-release the market stands with 1 for fish, meat and poultary, one with vegetables, and one with bakery goods. And as I saw in a diorama with the big barrel and towns men sitting at a table and benches drinking beer. I would love to build these villages.
I am sure there were reasons why PM stopped making these sets, but now there is a couple of new generations who want these towns and villages.
-- Donmobil