PlaymoFriends
General => News => Topic started by: Timotheos on April 13, 2008, 10:59:10
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http://www.klickywelt.de/info---modernes-militaer-t26511.html#314668
My translation is a bit shaky, but it looks like Klickywelt's administrator has banned modern military from the forum.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
My German is poor, so I get only a tantalizing glimpse of the feuding, flame wars, bannings, locked threads, and otherwise mayhem on that forum.
On the other hand, their customizations are top tier.
Maybe geniuses just fight more................................. 8} 8}
-Tim
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Hello Timotheos,
You have understood it quite well.
The forum has this rule because Geobra (PLAYMOBIL) has it as an official rule. Furthermore they also write that if Geobra change their own views on the topic, then they'll change it too.
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Hello, Timmy and Lars ... :wave: :wave:
Zirndorf has always been a bit sensitive about Playmobil being shown as a modern war toy.
Interestingly, Garden Wargaming has pretty much drawn the same line between "historical" and "modern," which seems to be somewhere around the time just before World War I. Yet, every year GW hosts Sylvia's wonderful Christmas story which takes place during World War II.
Several years ago an excellent customizer sent several photos of imaginary Playmobil sets depicting German soldiers from World War II to Garden Wargaming. The photos were placed in the GW Gallery. Within a few weeks GW received an email from Geobra politely asking for the photos to be removed. Of course GW immediately complied with Zirndorf's request to which Geobra replied with a very nice thank you.
So ... it seems that there's a fine line that's been drawn between "historical" and "modern" ...
I'm sure that if either Jimbo or I paint the new Playmobil flying boat as a World War II US Navy seaplane, that no one will say anything. Just as several customizers painted the little Playmobil biplane as von Richthofen's World War I aeroplane, no one said anything.
As I said, "It seems that there's a fine line ... "
All the best,
Richard
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a fine line it is.... :hmm:
lego had has a different approach though, if you look at the work of polish artist zbigniew libera (i am not including a link because the images of his work can be considered by some people as sensitive).
this is not an easy problem:
- w.w.1 is still considered as the last of the "romantic" wars, personified in the red baron, and no problem "playing" with it seems to arise.
- w.w.2, on the contrary, is still an "open wound" in many countries, and it is not considered a "nice" theme to play with, if you are 4 years old.
... but they were indeeed, both of them, wars - with many casualties and a lot of destruction. :'(
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lego had has a different approach though, if you look at the work of polish artist zbigniew libera
It's right that the sets were made and that LEGO gave the bricks to the artist, but they didn't know what types of artwork he was going to make. In addition, the artist included a text "sponsored by LEGO" on the controversial boxes, but LEGO still claim they didn't endorse his work at all.
It certainly is a sensitive subject all this about war. I, for myself, think it's a good thing that PLAYMOBIL are so clear about what they want, and what they don't want.
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As you may already know, Cachalote ...
(And, Lars seems to already know!) ...
Lego was not very happy with what that Polish "artist" did with their product. Product that they actually gave him to do something other than what he did!
Although Lego was unhappy and felt that their product had been compromised, the Jewish community seemed to be pleased to put the "work" on display.
So, what offends some may seem to be looked at as something else by others!
Regardless, let's end this discussion on a happy note.
If we are to have uniforms, flags and bands ... let's use them only for holiday parades and celebrations!
All the best,
Richard
please see attachment
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This is interesting.
The censorship seems extreme, but I sympathize with their intention. And I guess if you want to stay friends with Geobra... do they ever cut people off?
A: "What do you mean everything I ordered is sold out?"
B: "Sorry. All gone. Good bye."
Believe it or not, if you travel around the American south, you can still find guys bitter about our civil war. It's like amazing at first. You're driving around. You start seeing Dixie flags. OK. Then you get chaufferred around by your business contact, a local fellow who likes to talk. And talk. And talk.
Him: "We could have won the war."
You: "But, 'we' did win the war, didn't we?"
Him: <Dead silence>
-Tim
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Hello, Timmy ... :wave:
This is interesting.
What makes it "interesting," Timmy ... ???
The censorship seems extreme ...
Extreme ... ???
What about Garden Wargaming's (http://www.gardenwargaming.com) self imposed censorship which is almost identical to that of Playmobil ... ???
There are no posted "guidelines" on the GW-PC (http://gardenwargaming.playclicks.com/forum/index.php) forum. it is just "understood" that you don't post anything that's "distasteful" or that might be "hurtful" to anyone or any group of individuals. In other words, "act responsibly!"
Here at Playmofriends, most of us (most of the time) "act responsibly!" Occasionally, some of us act a bit "immature" and "mischievous" ... ;)
In other words, we sometimes get bored and try to elicit responses from others ... ;)
All the best,
Richard
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Sounds like you are looking for some form of Political Correctness . I could find you many people who will be insulted with a picture of a nude human body, or find offense in the fact that playmobil used chines people as prisoners in many sets, or that they had a monk drinking a questionable substance. If you attempt to live your life never offending anybody i suggest you lock your self in your closet and cut out your tong. These are wars that have great historical relevance and they did happen and no matter how hard people try to ignore them they need to be understood . Sheltering our youth from these events is hiding many educational experiences that we all could learn from. Do i think Playmobil should start a line of modern warefare, No but if somebody decides to do it i see no reason to censor it in any way .
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What makes it "interesting," Timmy ... ???
Extreme ... ???
To the extent that PM intercedes in a matter that is unlikely to have a business impact on it (private collectors customizing WWII scenes that wouldn't otherwise offend the average person).
On the other hand, the publishers of the game Tomb Raider seek legal recourse against people who publish modified code or edited screenshots that depict Lara Croft nude (ie. associating the game with pornography).
So, I guess to the extent that Playmobil is Geobra's intellectual property, it may have a legal right to censor how consumers portray the toy.
I guess I could find out by starting a website dedicated to my Playmobil Vichy French Navy and see if I get sued...
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Hello, Timmy ... :wave:
I guess I could find out by starting a website dedicated to my Playmobil Vichy French Navy and see if I get sued...
If you do, Tim ... please don't forget to give us a link ... :lol:
All the best,
Richard
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I would understand if the customizers were making money on a copyrighted item . or if they were selling the laura croft pic's . If i buy a car and modify it to my hearts content- are you saying the car manufacturer has a legal right to sue . I say more people should do it and let the company waste valuable recourses fighting these absurd claims ( bleeding the dragon ) If i buy an item and the company is allowed to tell me what i can and can not do with it is just going to far , what next , they are going to dictate how it is played with . Im sorry little Billy is playing wrong, here is a $50,000 law suit courtesy of Geobra, have a nice day .
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I think you're over-reacting, Rasputin. Playmobil have not asked an individual to stop customising WW2 figures but asked an organisation to stop featuring these customs on its website. The people running that website know Playmobil's view on modern warfare and also enjoy close links with Playmobil (notice the website has a Playmobil logo on it's pages) and so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the site should be asked to reflect Playmobil's philosophy on modern warfare. What individuals do with Playmobil is still their concern, although Playmobil will take action if people act in which harms Playmobil. I think there used to be a pornographic Playmobil site which was closed down.
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I just slipped over this thread...
As far as I know, there has not been an official demand from geobra to stop showing modern military customs. But I remember an occasion some months ago (still at playmo-portal) where a guy posted WWII-customs with explicit display of nazi-emblems, which is even forbidden by german law.
The new rule that modern military is banned in klickywelt is ongoing, a final decision has not been made now. Bennain just stated this ban to start the discussion. :hmm:
I am by far not a friend of military customs and I am definitely happy that playmobil do not sale a perfectly designed tank for children to play. Modern war here in germany definitely has a different impact. I would not say that all the germans are pacifists, but most have a very distinguished view on war as a game. I personally appreciate this attitude very much! 0) :love:
Everything else, I think, is kind of a personally decision someone has to make. The values are just as well different for people with different backgrounds. Just remember the initiative of the Malaysian (?) government to ban the playmo pirate ship from the market. What is seen mostly as a romantic, historic game, for those people is a very offensive toy, living in an area, where many people got killed by pirates every year.
But, just to make that clear, I agree that there are several brilliant customs adressing more or less modern military. :wow:
best,
socrates
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I am not, in my opinion over reacting i am simply reacting to yet another companies attempt to dictate its power over a product through censorship . Law is always in the interest of the strongest and i feel that many large companies choose to abuse the power they have been given. There are many people whom to this day are insulted by the stars and stripes and that the Civil War was a very hard time but playmobil chose to do a very long run on this line. Now that a certain group of highly sensitive people get offended by the swastika, "oh no, we not only can not do that, but we have to threaten anybody who shows our product in that manner". Well it is history and it will not go away. i guess it will be Ok to do a WWII theme in the year 2055 .
Well now that there is a quickly growing group of Environmentally sensitive individuals does that mean playmobil should stop making petrol gusling trucks and highly destructive construction equipment. These are very current issues that affect the way we all live .
Just trying to look at this situation a little diffrently and not blindly go along with Playmobil's decisions .
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Hello, Rasputin ... :wave:
I liked your thought which basically suggested, "If you really intend on living your life without ever offending anyone, then perhaps you should lock yourself in a closet and cut out your tongue." ... ;)
Maybe, it's enough to try to live your life by never intentionally trying to offend others and if a "misstep" occurs to simply say, "I'm sorry!"
It is probably not necessary for most of us here at Playmofriends to have "rules of conduct" imposed upon us, as most of us seem intelligent and caring enough to NOT want to cause anyone any pain or discomfort.
And, we all seem to be able to "police" each other when it's time for a gentle reminder (or two) ... :lol:
All the best,
Richard
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I am not, in my opinion over reacting i am simply reacting to yet another companies attempt to dictate its power over a product through censorship . Law is always in the interest of the strongest and i feel that many large companies choose to abuse the power they have been given. There are many people whom to this day are insulted by the stars and stripes and that the Civil War was a very hard time but playmobil chose to do a very long run on this line. Now that a certain group of highly sensitive people get offended by the swastika, "oh no, we not only can not do that, but we have to threaten anybody who shows our product in that manner". Well it is history and it will not go away. i guess it will be Ok to do a WWII theme in the year 2055 .
Well now that there is a quickly growing group of Environmentally sensitive individuals does that mean playmobil should stop making petrol gusling trucks and highly destructive construction equipment. These are very current issues that affect the way we all live .
Just trying to look at this situation a little diffrently and not blindly go along with Playmobil's decisions .
I'm not blindly following geobra's decisions, I merely suggested the possible background which might have led to geobra asking for the modern war theme to be removed from playmo-portal (but see Socrates' post after mine on this and my comment below.
The ACW was in many ways the first "modern" war in its effects on society and in the degree to which those effects were recorded not by artists after the event but by photographers at the time. In the light of those things, I'm always surprised that there is such a romantic view of the ACW, especially in the South which suffered most. And I'm pretty certain that many of those Playmobil ACW sets were bought in the USA, and I've seen posts from US collectors bemoaning the fact that the ACW now is so low-key in Playmobil's catalogues.
As regards WW1 and WW2, the views on and experience of these in Europe are I feel quite different from the views and experience of the USA. In the 30 or so years from 1914 to 1945, for roughly one-third of them mainland Europe was at war with massive destruction of life and property and society, with the period between the wars being years of disruption and unrest and poverty. In addition, in WW2, millions of people were imprisoned and died for no other reason than that they were the wrong religion or the wrong ethnic background. It is no "group of highly sensitive people" who get offended by the swastika but whole nations. The USA since the ACW has been fortunate enough not to suffer all out war in its mainland and, as a result, maybe does not understand the effects of this on people. All I am suggesting is that if there is some sort of "special relationship" between geobra and playmo-portal, then playmo-portal should accept and reflect the philosophy of geobra on issues such as modern war as part of that relationship. Moreover, Socrates' post made after mine suggests that the discussion is not the result of action by geobra but by the "owner" of playmo-portal raising the issue.
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Hello, Gordon ... :wave:
The USA since the ACW has been fortunate enough not to suffer all out war in its mainland and, as a result, maybe does not understand the effects of this on people.
During World War !!, some Brits had an interesting expression that they used when referring to the Yanks billeted in Great Britain, "The only thing wrong with the Yanks is that they're over sexed, over paid and over here!"
More recently, some Brits have suggested that they should also have a "Thanksgiving" holiday, a bit different from the Canadians and Americans. The major difference being that they thought that they might celebrate it on the fourth of July.
"Yank Bashing" seems to have become a fairly common pastime with some folks in the UK (as well as other "select" locations around the world).
One of the most popular forms of ridicule seem to be based on the United States being somewhat "out of touch" with the rest of the world. This might even be seen as a "lack of understanding" or ignorance!
However, being the "kind and gentle" souls that we ALL appear to be here at Playmofriends, it is highly unlikely that anyone here would express such derogatory or inflammatory thoughts to our members.
Don't you agree?
All the best,
Richard
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I do agree, Richard, and I'm not expressing such thoughts, remember, I am married to an American! But I do find that Americans do have a different view on the world, including my wife (although I think she sees things differently the longer she lives over here). To give an example, Diane's relatives in the States seem to have the idea that it's less distance for us to visit them in the USA than for them to visit us in the UK!
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Hello, Gordon ... :wave:
Diane's relatives in the States seem to have the idea that it's less distance for us to visit them in the USA than for them to visit us in the UK!
Well ... duh ... ::)
I thought that EVERYONE knew that ... :lol:
All the best to you and your "better" half, ... ;)
Richard
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If there are people that are simply running around with offensive material just for its shock value well that is definitely a different matter and needs to be addressed appropriately. In my opinion all people have the right to value Communism, Socialism, darwinism, religion, etc..... and just because a minority or majority does not agree with their views gives them no social right to censor them . I fell an open honest society is best and the ones who resort to censoring are perhaps slightly scared of the truth. I fell it is the power of the big business that put people like Hitler in the position to do the things he did and now big business is trying to censor these historical events . just a slight coincidence
Sorry for making it seem like i may have accused you of blindness. I was attempting to state what "I" am not doing, not what "you"
are doing. I will always feel that it is the individuals free right to have their own opinions and views and have the means to express them . It is the later that i think peoples abuse of power is administered on us . I do not like censorship in any form.
with the blood line i do, if any body should dislike the situation it is I . With some figures set at 23 million deaths and countless destruction I still find little offense in what that Government chose to do . IT hapened OK move on already.
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I agree (partially) with Playmofire - Americans have a different outlook on the world, compared with the Brits. But then again - so do the Dutch differ from both the Brits and Americans. The Germans have a totally different outlook on the world again - compared with the Brits, Americans and Dutch.
Each nation has a different history and therefore a different view of both the world and it's history.
I think therein lies a argument that hasn't been expressed yet. Geobra is more or less a local German company and therefore has a German look on things. I can certainly understand them in thinking that being affiliated with war-scenes from both WW1 and WW2 seems undesirable. If a individual creates such things for his own pleasure, then I don't think there's a problem.
But if it gets shown on the World Wide Web, then I do think there is - I just think they definitely do not want to be associated with those.
Just my own 0.02 worth ...
Bogro
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Nuts, I wrote a good long response on this thread, but then the connection crashed and I lost it.
Take it that it was insightful, witty and not the least inflammatory.
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if you look at the 2008 european playmobil catalogue, most of its themes are "peaceful":
- horse-riding holydays;
- farm;
- wild forest;
- veterinary clinic;
- aquatic zoo;
- dinosaur expedition;
- circus;
- airport;
- maritime transport and trains;
- construction work;
- bunnies;
- fairy-world;
- football;
- underwater expedition;
- car world;
- hospital;
- modern-house living;
- marriage;
- doll-house;
the exceptions with an "agressive" potential are:
- police;
- pirates;
- knights;
- old egypt;
- roman empire;
i think this is a very good example to where playmobil intends to go.
even the potentially "agressive" sets have clear "good" guys (the police) or are based in ancient history (all the others).
but if you want to see problems there are lots of them, of course.
as an example more than 90% of the figures have light pink skins.
playmobil seem to think that all horse-riders, farmers, pet-owners, veterinaries, jungle explorers, policemen, air-passengers, maritime passengers, dinosaur explorers, fairies, underwater explorers, pirates, knights, romans, mechanics, car drivers, doctors, nurses, patients, brides, grooms and general public.
the same goes for national-park, water-park, circus, airport, train, maritime and construction workers.
with chocolate-brown skin you have 1 dinosaur explorer and 1 roman gladiator.
with light brown or dark-orange skin you have 2 footballers, 2 airport passengers, 1 explorer, 6 pirates and all the egyptians.
in more or less 400 klickies you have less than 40 "non-pink" ones...
i am glad the pirates are the most "racial well-balanced" family... 0)
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Nuts, I wrote a good long response on this thread, but then the connection crashed and I lost it.
Take it that it was insightful, witty and not the least inflammatory.
Doesn't sound like you! :lol:
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in more or less 400 klickies you have less than 40 "non-pink" ones...
What about LEGO :lol:
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Sorry for making it seem like i may have accused you of blindness. I was attempting to state what "I" am not doing, not what "you"
are doing. I will always feel that it is the individuals free right to have their own opinions and views and have the means to express them . It is the later that i think peoples abuse of power is administered on us . I do not like censorship in any form.
No problem and an apology from me for taking it too personally.
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but if you want to see problems there are lots of them, of course.
as an example more than 90% of the figures have light pink skins.
Geobra is more or less a local German company and therefore has a German look on things.
I think quote 2 explains quote 1!
-Tim
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I think quote 2 explains quote 1!
-Tim
Agreed. In the UK the national percentage of non-whites is still nearer 5% than 10%, though they are greatly concentrated in the major cities, and in London we have a very cosmopolitan mix, maybe 20-25% non-white.
In some cities and towns you won't see a non-white face all day - and when you do you suddenly realise why you felt you were in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
I don't have to go far, about 3 miles up the road to Southall, to be the only white face in a crowd of Asian faces, and briefly feel how it must be to be the odd one out.
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Hello, Lars ... :wave:
What about LEGO :lol:
If I remember correctly, the last time I looked (which wasn't too long ago) Lego minifigs seemed to be more yellow than pink ... (Am I correct?)
All the best,
Richard
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Hello, Martin ... :wave:
Agreed. In the UK the national percentage of non-whites is still nearer 5% than 10%, though they are greatly concentrated in the major cities, and in London we have a very cosmopolitan mix, maybe 20-25% non-white.
In some cities and towns you won't see a non-white face all day - and when you do you suddenly realise why you felt you were in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
I don't have to go far, about 3 miles up the road to Southall, to be the only white face in a crowd of Asian faces, and briefly feel how it must be to be the odd one out.
In the Virgin Islands, the "white faces" make up only about 10% of the population!
It would be interesting to know what the percentages are here at Playmofriends. Unfortunately, I can't think of how we could do that anonymously.
But, are we getting "off topic" ... or, is this really an important part of the whole picture?
All the best,
Richard
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... But, are we getting "off topic" ... or, is this really an important part of the whole picture? ...
Actually, I don't really think we are "off topic". I've visited the place only once (to be honest) but I did gather that most of the designers came from the area of Zirndorf. So, Geobra's ideas about any theme are more or less decided by the local views and visions. So ... yes; a ACW or western theme series wouldn't be a problem as actually all we really know about it is about movies like "Gone with the wind"; "The Good, the bad and the ugly" and such. Highly romanticised (in a way) and not hurtfull to the designers as it's not part of their mindset.
It's a local thing. I allways thought of Playmobil as a big international operation. But when I visited the plant someone made me realise that it isn't. It's a local German manufacturer that produces a German toy that they sell worldwide. That's all.
I think that that explains a lot.
Just my own 0.01 worth.
Bogro
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To Richard:
On the contrary, I don't believe we are sufficiently off topic!
Returning to off subject:
the exceptions with an "agressive" potential are:
- police;
- pirates;
- knights;
- old egypt;
- roman empire;
i think this is a very good example to where playmobil intends to go.
even the potentially "agressive" sets have clear "good" guys (the police) or are based in ancient history (all the others).
To Cachalote:
Cachalote, you're near the top of the list of people I like on the forum, but, gosh, I hope your views are a minority!
(RE: people who want to see all military themes disappear)
But, seriously, I think Playmobil has kept the same proportion of modern themes to military themes since I was a kid. When I was a kid the following themes were huge: construction, farming, vacationing (modern "leisure"), hospital, police, and racing vehicles.
I think military themes are harmless for kids. It's the graphic depictions in movies that provide the disturbing images. I played cowboys and indians and civil war Playmobil as a kid and didn't even think of it in terms of "killing people".
Yeah, klickies "died" but as a kid I didn't connect it to real people actually dying.
If a kid has never seen a person killed, I don't believe playtime adventuring has any meaning to them beyond just interacting with their toys. They don't have a "context" against which to associate Play and Reality.
Besides, violent children who grow up to be social problems likely don't spend a lot of time playing with Playmobil to draw inspiration from it.....
I'd argue: if the kid is playing with playmobil, odds are, even if he's pulverizing his klickies with feigned nuclear blasts, he's going to grow up to be a pretty harmless guy.
-Tim
-Tim
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Hello, Bogro ... :wave:
It's a local thing. I allways thought of Playmobil as a big international operation. But when I visited the plant someone made me realise that it isn't. It's a local German manufacturer that produces a German toy that they sell worldwide. That's all.
Well said!
My family and I visited the plant at Dietenhofen in 1986 and I think with this statement, you've said it all, Bogro,
"(Playmobil is) ... a local German manufacturer that produces a German toy that they sell worldwide."
All the best,
Richard
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If I remember correctly, the last time I looked (which wasn't too long ago) Lego minifigs seemed to be more yellow than pink ... (Am I correct?)
You're right, Richard. I just meant that EVERY LEGO man has the same skin colour (except licensed figures) and by PLAYMOBIL at least some few has another than the majority;)
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i am not against military playmo-themes tim, w.w.1 or 2 included.
belonging also to the "creative design" world (although i stick to buildings) i often replace a more objective criticism with a what-would-i-do-if-i-was-the-chief-designer approach.
in this case, i was reading on the "ban" and my first thougt was that i hate "bans". >:(
but then i tried to imagine a playmo goebbels figure and suddenly realised that a playmo-smile would be just disgusting. :hmm:
the "ban" started not to seem so stupid.
then i thought about the smile as the main concept behind playmobil and started to think if everyone could/would smile back at the klickies. :)
the "skin-color" problem came to my mind instantly.
maybe, as bogro said, playmobil designers can be considered as plain narrow-minded very local "zirndorfians" that no nothing of the world that surrounds them.
it is a possibility but i find it difficult to imagine geobra as such a "naive" company.
i don't know what to think.
... but i know there are other problems that give me no reason to smile:
- a lack of female figures,
- the solo-christian view, reinforced with the marriage teme,
- the separation betwen masculine and feminine themes (pink was used in the boxes of the victorian doll-hose theme);
i have no problems with the more "action" oriented themes - you can easily forget the real "agression" potential in pirates, knights, vikings or romans, and see them as good guys.
on the other hand, aplying a smile to a s.w.a.t. policeman doesn't seem to be such a good idea...
anyhow, maybe the smile created by geobra could be a good criteria to future designs, considering that everyone (and not just blond boys) should be able to smile back at the klickies. :)
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just to point out that this had something to do with Playmobil asking GWG to remove certain images depicting Klickies in WW2 attire. It was a toy created by them and they are dictating how we can show them to the public ( more or less )
Now if I remember back at another forum the creator of that site felt it was not in the interest of his site to allow certain people to express themselves in a particular manner that he found to be offensive to his philosophies . So he Banned them .
I see some similarities in these events in they are dealing with censorship .
Here in the US we are having problems with free speech ( as many others are as well ) . If your opinions do not go along with their overall good than you get blacklisted or worse yet, silenced .
I do not have any problems with playmobils choices of themes but when they start shoving their philosophies down the throats of the "Free" individual than i feel they have crossed the line .
It was suggested playmobil staff might suffer from a little isolation or island fever , but do we all have to suffer ? it is a big beautiful & ugly world out there just open your eyes and let it in. Editing it or censoring it is not the answer.
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Phew a lot of questions ... and perhaps I can try to answer a few.
Firstly at Cachalote;
Geobra used to have mixed themes. A nice example is the old Knights theme of the '80s. Knights and shops in the same theme. Unfortunately, they discovered that they just didn't sell that well. After that they found out that seperate themes for boys and girls worked much better. So they did just that. And that answers your complaint of "not enough women in the themes" as well. You're wrong there. There are plenty of women in the girls themes !!! (some goes for child klickies BTW). Why? Well, from my own experience; I see the boys mostly picking up the (make) knights, soldiers and firefighters and such - but hardly ever the females. In other words - I guess they just don't sell that well. Apparently girls have a much more balanced worldview as boys are represented in their themes.
Still, I too think it's a pity they seperated the themes; but according to a designer I've heard speaking they found out the hard way it just didn't work.
The Solo Christian view is clear; I give you that but then again it is a German toy and I think that in the area where Playmobil is produced at least 90% of the people are christians and so is their market they target. They create their themes and sets from what they see around them for the market that's directly around them. Like I said before; it is a German product. There are some shifts (as the SWAT-sets show); but how that will develop is something for the future.
What you think or believe is not relevant (nor is my thoughts about it). The decisions (I think) are being made by the majority of buyers (that's definity not us) and the local design team in Zirndorf. I am sure we all have ideas we would gladly put forward; question is though - will they do as well as the Arc of Noah ??? Somehow I doubt it.
Just my thoughts though (except for the designer part - I really heard him say that)
Bogro
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just to point out that this had something to do with Playmobil asking GWG to remove certain images depicting Klickies in WW2 attire. It was a toy created by them and they are dictating how we can show them to the public ( more or less )
Now if I remember back at another forum the creator of that site felt it was not in the interest of his site to allow certain people to express themselves in a particular manner that he found to be offensive to his philosophies . So he Banned them .
I see some similarities in these events in they are dealing with censorship .
There are some great differences first. As far as I know, Geobra has the copyright on the images of Playmobil and since the first and second world war can still be a very sensative area in Germany, Geobra doesný want their brand to be associated with that. I can understand that. Secondly; they didn't force anyone - they asked. Wich GWG followed through.
In case of the "other forum" the creator banned people without notice, without warning and without any reason whatso ever and without even bothering to listen to what they have to say. That's not censorship. That's blind dictatorship. Sorry - I won't buy that.
Here in the US we are having problems with free speech ( as many others are as well ) . If your opinions do not go along with their overall good than you get blacklisted or worse yet, silenced .
I do not have any problems with playmobils choices of themes but when they start shoving their philosophies down the throats of the "Free" individual than i feel they have crossed the line .
It was suggested playmobil staff might suffer from a little isolation or island fever , but do we all have to suffer ? it is a big beautiful & ugly world out there just open your eyes and let it in. Editing it or censoring it is not the answer.
They don't "shove" their philosophies down anyones throat. They want to keep producing a friendly child's toy and they want to secure that. Anyone is free to do what they want with it. But when they start showing it in the public domain, then their role changes. If they don't react to it others will question their passiveness as well. As if they condoned what happened. Tricky. They just exercise their right. As Disney would do if somewhere a porn version popped up with Mickey Mouse. It's a fine line, my friend.
As to their isolation or island fever ... who did suggest that? I can't find that ... must have missed that.
Anyway, It is indeed a very bad world out there - but that doesn't mean I have to confront my boys to that in their child years! I find Pirates and such violently enough - but it is clearly childsplay since no one of us can remember anything like that happening. If we can (like the nation that´s banning the pirates' then it´s no more childsplay. Then it´s no longer creating a platform to play out the childs fantasy. Then it becomes a platform to play out the childs live. And that´s not what Playmobil is meant to be. I think.
Bogro
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the "skin-color" problem came to my mind instantly.
...
- a lack of female figures,
- the solo-christian view, reinforced with the marriage teme,
- the separation betwen masculine and feminine themes (pink was used in the boxes of the victorian doll-hose theme);
Hey Cache,
Maybe calling Zirndorf narrow-minded is a little strong.
As a devout atheist, I haven't felt PM's religious themes were heavy-handed. I mean, as far as the wedding went, somebody probably said "let's do a wedding theme; little girls like to play wedding." And, I mean, how else are they going to depict it? A courthouse with the county clerk issuing the documents (not fun!). A Shinto wedding (fun for me; probably few else). And, in addition to that, young, fashionable Japanese and Chinese prefer western style weddings in churches (even if it's fake and they hired the priest).
So, that leaves us with the un-religious "western" customers and Muslem customers maybe being turned off by a Church wedding. So I see PM's church decision as rational.
I joke about the race stereotypes too, but when you think about it, Sub-Saharan Africa isn't exactly Playmobil's biggest customer, and Chinese, Japanese and many Indians and Middle Easterners are fair-skinned. Hispanics in the USA are happy to be considered fair-skinned (most are). So the big issue I guess would remain for African-descended Americans and Europeans, who possibly might be more attracted to Playmobil with more black klickies.
On the other hand, considering that some toy brands have already waded deeply into Chinese / Japanese motifs, one might argue PM is a little behind the times, yet the company claims not to follow trends, anyway.
-Tim
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Sorry if I am being unpolite, but this is what I think.
-As Playmobil is German, they do not want to enforce a bad image of Germans as nazis, they would not want to make something that gave some bad name to all them. I suppose no US toy factory would produce an Enola Gay toy, or napalm bomb toys. I suppose no southern US toy factory would produce Civil war soldier toys. I know this reasoning not always holds, as there was a comparable anhilation of American natives yet we still have toys of indians versus Western soldiers and cowboys.
-Even if they want to make them, as long as their WW II foes, just by sake of garden wargaming, sensitive persons, with families suffering the Holocaust (or opportunist people, with a less moral interest) may sue Playmobil for promoving nazism if not portraying the nazis as clearly bad (what is much more difficult for a toy than for a movie). Indeed, perhaps by ignorance, but except for Lego (which also had problems, and can give more reason to avoid making nazis), I do not know of toys performing nazi soldiers.
-Neonazis may get angry if nazis are depicted as bad and sabotage Playmobil (there may be many there)
Thus, it seems the most logical for them to avoid making nazi clickies, and to avoid showing nazi scenes in sites that depend on them or at least request to use their logo.
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Hello, Playmofriends ... :wave:
We have certainly chatted a lot about this "alleged" banning of "modern military" ... 8}
However, does anyone actually have any "copies" of what was actually banned?
Or, is this all just conjecture and hearsay?
I, for one, would be very interested in seeing the "evidence" ... :hmm:
All the best,
Richard
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Well, here's what's been reported in this thread and, as you can see, it is not so clear cut as some responses have assumed.
http://www.klickywelt.de/info---modernes-militaer-t26511.html#314668
My translation is a bit shaky, but it looks like Klickywelt's administrator has banned modern military from the forum.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
My German is poor, so I get only a tantalizing glimpse of the feuding, flame wars, bannings, locked threads, and otherwise mayhem on that forum.
Hello Timotheos,
You have understood it quite well.
The forum has this rule because Geobra (PLAYMOBIL) has it as an official rule. Furthermore they also write that if Geobra change their own views on the topic, then they'll change it too.
I just slipped over this thread...
As far as I know, there has not been an official demand from geobra to stop showing modern military customs. But I remember an occasion some months ago (still at playmo-portal) where a guy posted WWII-customs with explicit display of nazi-emblems, which is even forbidden by german law.
The new rule that modern military is banned in klickywelt is ongoing, a final decision has not been made now. Bennain just stated this ban to start the discussion. :hmm:
So it seems that maybe there isn't a ban yet but that the webmaster on klickywelt is seeking the views of his members on this.
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mmm... Indeed I granted the cases of banning as true without further proove, and thought about it...
But now that you ask for hard proof, Richard, I remember seeing at least in this site, a proof of non-censorship: some clickies customed as the Afrika Korps of Rommel...
I suppose this site does not depend on Playmobil, isn't it?? It seems reasonable that if somebody else customizes clickies like that, Playmobil can not be criticized (in case of somebody thinking they are promoving nazism).
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Thanks, Gordon and Pyrrhus ...
I read Bennain's "request" to his members and the responses to his post.
It would seem that everyone may be making a very big "to do" over nothing ... ;)
(In fact is sounds like there is a possibility that Klickywelt may have a Playmobil "dark side" area for "adults only" ... Which actually may not be a bad idea.)
However, if anyone wants to see World War II Klickys all they have to do is go to the Spanish Forum.
There are Afrika Korps and even what looks like a military junta ...
Click HERE (http://www.playclicks.com/playforos/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17695.0;attach=101029;image) ...
All the best,
Richard
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Perhaps there should be seen some cat-like heads made by Malone to perform some "Fritz the cat"-like scene. :lol:
Or my dirty mind perhaps got astray and you were talking about other thing...
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I will certainly admit i have a big problem with the so called ownership of things . If i paid my hard earned money for an item, i do not need that company telling me what i can and can not do with it . If i want to listen to some music and a friend burns me a copy to bad you greedy record studio . If i turn it into a business and start selling copies of the item then i agree that a copyright law was broken , not if i give it away for others to enjoy. This is one of the greatest problems with many big companies . they buy up all the innovative useful technology and file it away to keep making money on their inefficient wasteful products.
I think the adult only room would be a great idea for this site .
i see the similarity in either the owner of the forum or playmobil as instilling its own beliefs onto others and if ones does not comply, than suffer the consequences . Yes playmobil is much more tactful in accomplishing this but non the less they are both controlling .
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-As Playmobil is German, they do not want to enforce a bad image of Germans as nazis, they would not want to make something that gave some bad name to all them. I suppose no US toy factory would produce an Enola Gay toy, or napalm bomb toys.
Just to clarify, it's not that Playmobil that have banned the use of the Nazi Swastika from their toys, this has been the law in Germany since 1945, that they have to obey.
There has been much pressure to ban the use of the Nazi Swastika in other countries too, though as a kid I had many model kits with swastikas, and they didn't turn me into a Nazi.
I refer you to this article http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n2p34_Desjardin.html among many other items on the internet.
Playmobil's self-imposed ban is on modern military hardware - tanks, machine guns, and other weapons of mass destruction.
Thus their ban encompasses not merely WW2, but any war theme since WW1 when tanks and machine guns changed the face of warfare. There won't be a Vietnam theme, Korea theme, Afghanistan Theme, or Iraq theme any time soon, to name a few.
Note that the Gatling Gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatling_gun, invented before and used in the US Civil war, is not present in Playmobil, as it would be too violent, though cannons are, presumably being still a single-shot weapon, though they do massive damage, and loaded with grapeshot would easily kill dozens at one firing.
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I will certainly admit i have a big problem with the so called ownership of things . If i paid my hard earned money for an item, i do not need that company telling me what i can and can not do with it . If i want to listen to some music and a friend burns me a copy to bad you greedy record studio . If i turn it into a business and start selling copies of the item then i agree that a copyright law was broken , not if i give it away for others to enjoy. This is one of the greatest problems with many big companies . they buy up all the innovative useful technology and file it away to keep making money on their inefficient wasteful products.
Sounds to me you've got a problem with certain laws. That's a different discussion ;) ... and I don't think this is the right place for it.
I think the adult only room would be a great idea for this site .
You mean something like Hell from Playmoboard and The Cauldron of the Laughing Giraffe? I think that's up to the owners of this Forum. Not us.
I see the similarity in either the owner of the forum or playmobil as instilling its own beliefs onto others and if ones does not comply, than suffer the consequences . Yes playmobil is much more tactful in accomplishing this but non the less they are both controlling .
I see a big difference between politely asking and blindly shutting out individuals. This is putting things way to simplistic. There are a awefull lot of similarities between monkeys and man but that doesn't mean they are the same nor that they ever end up being the same.
I'm afraid that I can see where you're coming from; but I totally disagree with you.
Bogro
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Rasputin, I think you are right in that Playmobil should not attack us if we want to customize a click as Hitler, Göring or their friends, and then upload them.
But I think they are in their right to ask these to be not displayed in forums of theirs, not in forums in some way "endorsed" by them (or Playmobil would stop endorsing them). I understand you because I was politely banned from a political discussion once, as the owner of the website was the one who asked me to leave.
However, I think if you own a site not endorsed by Playmobil, there should be no problem in uploading nazis, KKK, etc.
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Hello, Playmofriends ... :wave:
However, I think if you own a site not endorsed by Playmobil, there should be no problem in uploading nazis, KKK, etc.
Probably everyone knows that this forum has some guidelines! (There's a "guide" button next to the "help" button in the "button bar" toward the top of this page!)
(http://www.gardenwargamer.com/images/bar.png) (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?action=guide)
Perhaps all of us should review our guidelines and rules every so often.
If anyone is having trouble finding the guidelines, click HERE (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?action=rules)!
Or, if it's easier ... just read Rule 6 below:
6. Posts that contain racial, ethnic, religious, sexist, sexual or sexual innuendo, or any other discriminatory or inflammatory content will be deleted without exception. Such posts do not show respect (see Item #1), and those who post them risk suspension from PlaymoFriends.
All the best, my friends,
Richard
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I did not know that playmobil was endorsing forums . I guess if the forum is relying on contributions to the site they can ask for certain material to reflect their view points ( as narrow as they may be ) . For some reason i thought playmobil never endorsed free lance sites .
@ richard that is a pretty broad statement that could encompass just about anything . What picture does not include race ? there are plenty of religious material from playmobil . I think it should read that " if it does not reflect the administrators own belief than you risk punishment "
When a person begins to censor they put themselves at risk of being censored .
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Perhaps the word "rules" is a bit too strong, as the creators of Playmofriends only refer to them as "Member Guidelines!" They do not appear to have ever called them "rules!"
And, "Guideline 1." may be the most important "Guideline" of all,
"1. Treat all members of this community with the respect, tolerance, politeness and the decency with which you would wish to be treated."
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All right, sorry, didn't wanted to make any racist statement, just to say where one would put whatever one wants, without being supervised.
I will not cite nazis or KKK anymore if considered offensive (I though only endorsing such ideas would be considered offensive).
I am not sympathetic with nazi/racist viewpoints, though I think if one owns a site, one may post there whatever one wants.
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Most of our guidelines are based on good old common sense, but as Richard said, number 1 is the most important. :)
If anyone thinks the guidelines are too vague, I'd be happy to hear suggestions on how to improve the wording. It has been edited in the past and can easily be added to or altered again.
Any decisions as to whether a member of PlaymoFriends requires a warning for their behaviour are not made by one solitary person. The forum is run by a team consisting of one administrator and (presently) 3 moderators.
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you are right sylvia and richard, the 1st rule/guideline is really the most important one. :wow:
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I would agree that ones right to opinion needs to be treated with respect . i just wish the rest of the world would openly adopt these ideals .
One thing though is in the guideline it states ( treat others how how you wish to be treated ) . Would playmobil like to have its logo censored if say the Muslims ( or whomever ) decided so ? , or if this was applied to your nations flag ? In this day and age i feel one must be very careful of the precedent you set .
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... I am not sympathetic with nazi/racist viewpoints, ...
I never for a minute thought you were, Pyrrhus.
@ Rasputin: I think you're very much overreacting now and are polarising and aggrevating the whole thing. Please stop.
Bogro
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One thing though is in the guideline it states ( treat others how how you wish to be treated ) . Would playmobil like to have its logo censored if say the Muslims ( or whomever ) decided so ? , or if this was applied to your nations flag ? In this day and age i feel one must be very careful of the precedent you set .
I think there may have been a slight misunderstanding. PlaymoFriends' guidelines were created by this website's founders and only relate to users of this forum. ;)
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Thank you for noticing my passion for freedom of expression and beliefs. i will always challenge the oppressor no matter how insignificant it may seem.
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Rasputin: I am also rather Chomskyian in defending all people's right to express their ideas, no matter how much they differ from my own. However, when we are on the site of other persons, with some rules or requests, we have to observe them, as they may have the right to ban us, because that is their own website (as you and me have the right to expel annoying people from our houses).
I think one can say whatever one wants only in his own website, or in a rather rule-less forum.
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now here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7362161.stm) is a company that is really pushing the envelope . I am not tring to start this topic up again just showing what you can get for your Barbie collection . She does fit with the blond hair and blue eyes after all .
If this is offensive to some one please just ask an admin. to remove it. I have no problem with that . Well i do but the fact is, it is not my site . :rainbow:
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I was also thinking that, as well as the moral concerns of the nazi genocides, perhaps Germans do not like to remind both Wold Wars because they mean two times of destruction and empoverishment for their country. What for us at distance is just uniforms and wargaming, as in WWII movies, for them were uneasy times not nice to play with.
Sorry Rasputin, I cannot enter the link, do you have the site adress??
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Sorry Rasputin, I cannot enter the link, do you have the site adress??
That's odd. It was working OK last week.
Maybe the bbc news website got complaints and took it down. :eh?:
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That's odd. It was working OK last week.
Maybe the bbc news website got complaints and took it down. :eh?:
It does appear that BBC took it down ...
(http://www.gardenwargamer.com/images/404bbcnews.png)
However, if anyone really cares, the Daily Mail may still have it up ...