PlaymoFriends
General => Brainstorming For Playmobil => Topic started by: Rasputin on November 08, 2012, 17:30:36
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So due to a discussion in the pcc, I will stay clear of the cross topic :lol: I had a look at the new round of western sets. I was interested in the flags in specific. In the past Geobra made in my opinion a more balance representation of history from both sides of the civil war. The reason I say more balance is if you take a look in the DB for your self you (or at least I did) will notice something. Out of all the sets in that theme there are 17 sets that have a Union side flag and from the Confederate side.... 1 ( unless I am missing something but I check again and again). One lonely flag is hardly balanced. Now for some reason today Geobra decided to not even have one. The new batch of sets has 2 from the Union side and 0 from the south. When the new batch came out I felt the need to be patient as many times Geobra does not release all the sets at once and again this was true. A second new batch of westerners appeared, 3 add-on south, 3 add-on natives, etc....and yet not one flag from the south? I guess they also did not have wagons and cannons either anymore. Flags in my opinion are the army's way of advertising and with out them they are not an army. Its has no meaning if you do not distinguish the different sides with a banner/flag. They are just people w/guns and no cause.
Now why does Geobra find it necessary to advertise the north so heavily but not the south. You can not have one with out the other. If you do not include the south symbol then do not include the north's. It not history, again ::) it becomes propaganda ;D where is the "education" in that?
Oh and the one lonely south flag they did use was the 2nd version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Confederate_flag)
and Tim can tell you all about the major historical inaccuracy's with regards to the Natives
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Here we go again... ::)
If you hadn't been around on the forum for a long time, I'd think you are a troll. :hmm:
So, this time not the Alpine mountain-cross is the propaganda in your opinion, but the US (Union) soldiers in the Western sets and the disproportinate lack of their Confederate counterparts, or their flags. 8}
There are about 2 to 3 popular (though not allways politically/historically correct) views about US soldiers in the Wild West-theme, especially with kids playing cowboys & indians in their backyard;
1. US soldiers coming to the aid of civilians in distress, which are being robbed by bandits
2. US soldiers coming to the aid of civilians in distress, by fighting off attacking Indians
(I'm European and ''Indian'' is what we here have called the native populations of the Americas for the past hundreds of centuries, so please excuse me for not calling them Native Americans as a politically-correct US-citizen now should do)
3. US soldiers fighting each other during the US Civil War
During the 1970s and 1980s, Playmobil's soldier-part ot the Western-theme was focused towards 1. and 2.
During the 1990s, Playmobil's soldier-part ot the Western-theme was focused towards 3.
During the 2000s, there was no Playmobil Western-theme.
At the start of the 2010s, Playmobil's soldier-part of the Western-theme is apparantly again more focused towards 1. and 2, though they offer a Confederate soldiers Add-on set in their DS-assortment.
The above should explain your observed lack of enough Confederate flags.
Btw, in Europe, the Secession of Confederate States is still often considered as associated with slavery in the US.
It is also often considered linked with (Neo)Nazism, racism and the ''Cuckoo Clan''-folks.
How much this could be a contributing factor in the lack of more Confederate flags in Playmobil sets, you should ask Geobra directly.
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Oh and the one lonely south flag they did use was the 2nd version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Confederate_flag)
That could be because most people wouldn't know the first one...
There are about 2 to 3 popular (though not allways politically/historically correct) views about US soldiers in the Wild West-theme, especially with kids playing cowboys & indians in their backyard;
You're right regarding the "scenarios" - EVERYONE (well, at least my age :-[ ) played cowboys and indians (I don't call them native americans either :P ) - the "adventure" movies of our time were full of bad indians and heroic cowboys and soldiers (the cavalry!)...
Seeing the indians as the victims of "our" "progress" is a more modern thing.
Btw, in Europe, the Secession of Confederate States is still often considered as associated with slavery in the US.
It is also often considered linked with (Neo)Nazism, racism and the ''Cuckoo Clan''-folks.
I have to confess I never questioned the reasons or the just cause of the north before North And South.
Won't go into the "religion sets" either. >:(
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Yep! The Confederate are the bad guys from our European point of view. They were slavers and the Union fought slavery. That's what we learn here at school anyway.
About the flags, I can make you some sketches, Ras. Just send me a pic and you'll get free Photoshopped designs for your (evil) Confederates! ;)
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I am quite neutral about who where good and bad. The victor writes history after all.
While slavery was certainly not a good thing, it did still take a very long time before black people where generally accepted as equals through the United States.
Aside from not enslaving them anymore, many blacks where still treated just the same.
But regardless of all that, I am very positive that especially in America there would be great interest in having both Northern and Southern soldiers while in Europe that interest would be a whole lot less. I dont think they ever told me about the american civil war in school. Then again I dont remember them telling me about the succesor states, Alexander the Great, Carthage, the invasions of the Huns and Mongols, etc.
Either way, I think it would be good if they would skip forts and soldiers for once with the western theme. Why does there need to be a new fort in each new batch? So much other stuff to focus on instead of soldiers. Trains, farms, bandits, towns, gold seekers, indians, Mexicans, etc..
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Well, I guess for accuracy I would like to see the Confederate flag, that being said, the southern flag to many represents slavery and hatred. Something a toy company might not want to deal with historically accurate or not. I don't believe the "southern pride" thing when it comes to the confederate flag either. The confederacy was only around about four years and they were trying to leave the U.S. Not too much heritage there to be proud of.
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thank you for the elaborate explanation Hadoque :hatoff: it was quite informative
Tahra, what you do not want a mental thrashing :shhhh: :lol:
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About the flags, I can make you some sketches, Ras. Just send me a pic and you'll get free Photoshopped designs for your (evil) Confederates! ;)
Thank you very much, when I get more time for playmobil I may just do that, thanks
I am quite neutral about who where good and bad. The victor writes history after all.
While slavery was certainly not a good thing, it did still take a very long time before black people where generally accepted as equals through the United States.
Aside from not enslaving them anymore, many blacks where still treated just the same.
Either way, I think it would be good if they would skip forts and soldiers for once with the western theme. Why does there need to be a new fort in each new batch? So much other stuff to focus on instead of soldiers. Trains, farms, bandits, towns, gold seekers, indians, Mexicans, etc..
Yes, the victors sure do get to write history however they want need it to be written. I read now that computers are around historians are having serious troubles and concerns.
I unfortunately see "it" to this day from all ethnic groups. It seems people love to hate each other ::)
I agree that it would be great to have themes with more common folk, seeing as they are the majority. The world is not populated with soldiers on every corner. How about releasing the prototype Chinese camp full of railway workers, now that would go over well :lol:
Well, I guess for accuracy I would like to see the Confederate flag, that being said, the southern flag to many represents slavery and hatred. Something a toy company might not want to deal with historically accurate or not. I don't believe the "southern pride" thing when it comes to the confederate flag either. The confederacy was only around about four years and they were trying to leave the U.S. Not too much heritage there to be proud of.
That is why for historical relevance and PR Geobra could have used the first version of the South's flag. It does not seem to stimulate the same responce if anybody even could recognize/identify it. It was not a koo koo cult symbol and the neo nuts did not use it either as far as I know.
(http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/Koretsky/1stConfederateFlag1861_zps7aed0feb.png)
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I live in Louisiana, and yes, people fly confederate flags as a symbol of racial hatred. When I see a confederate flag flying, I think exactly as hadoque said, that the person is possibly a KKK member or neo-nazi, or at least has those same prejudices. True, the war wasn't really about slavery; that was simply an issue that brought the argument over states' rights to a head. But it is definitely associated in the minds of people today with slavery and racial hatred and the confederate flag has become a symbol of such thinking. So it seems you get upset saying they are promoting "propoganda" for religious intolerance, then you are offended by "propoganda" for racial tolerance.
That said, I can still see playmobil producing such a flag, for the sake of having confederates for the yankees to fight. That would make sense. But as hadoque also pointed out, who says this theme is about the civil war? These could just be US cavalry soldiers.
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Best use of the Stars and Bars is on the roof of the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard... the show, not the movie ;)
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But as hadoque also pointed out, who says this theme is about the civil war? These could just be US cavalry soldiers.
I usually assume that that's what they were - soldiers from the late nineteenth century. I never associated the forts much with the Civil War.
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I live in Louisiana, and yes, people fly confederate flags as a symbol of racial hatred. When I see a confederate flag flying, I think exactly as hadoque said, that the person is possibly a KKK member or neo-nazi, or at least has those same prejudices. True, the war wasn't really about slavery; that was simply an issue that brought the argument over states' rights to a head. But it is definitely associated in the minds of people today with slavery and racial hatred and the confederate flag has become a symbol of such thinking. So it seems you get upset saying they are promoting "propoganda" for religious intolerance, then you are offended by "propoganda" for racial tolerance.
That said, I can still see playmobil producing such a flag, for the sake of having confederates for the yankees to fight. That would make sense. But as hadoque also pointed out, who says this theme is about the civil war? These could just be US cavalry soldiers.
People fly every flag in some part of the world for that reason. Just think of what flying the stars and stripes means to people in Iraq or Afghanistan today. I am sure they do not get a warm fuzzy feeling seeing it.
I am not saying playmobil should not make something, I am saying they should make the other half of the story, omission is lying and therefore becomes propaganda not education.
Are the crusaders not about the crusades? but just a bunch of churchy people on horses who happen to have weapons on their way to a party? :party:
I again am not offended or insulted at all, I can make the other things that Geobra refuses to make to teach my kids about the whole history, its just odd to me and all the judment is silly. There were good things about both south and north, ballance is key.
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Yes, well there isn't any playmobil in Iraq or Afghanistan as far as I know. It is in the US and Europe, and apparently from what some of our European PFs have said, in both the US and Europe, the confederate flag is often considered a symbol of racial hatred.
I understand your point that it makes sense to have both sides of the war depicted. How can you possibly make a civil war dio, or any war dio, without soldiers from both sides? But even though the war was really fought over was the matter of whether the US was to be a loose confederation of states that made their own laws, or one united country under one government, the issue foremost in peoples minds then and especially now looking back on it was and is slavery, and that may be the issue that makes Geobra steer clear of the subject, and have cavalry fighting Indians instead.
Now, if you are not personally offended by any of this, why do you bring it up?
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I don't think the average kid cares much about the Civil War nowadays, but I can see how it might be irksome to an adult collector who wants a good Civil War dio. Anyhow, custom flags shouldn't be too difficult.
As for the flag itself, yes it is flown by racist people (many of whom have a rather shaky grasp on history). It is also flown by some African Americans who are proud of their southern heritage (some of whom participate in Civil War reenactments and fight on the Confederate side as some of their ancestors did). The Civil War was a lot more complicated than we make it out to be. Slavery was by no means the primary issue, and many northerners were just as racist as the southerners.
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Tahra, what you do not want a mental thrashing :shhhh: :lol:
???
I usually assume that that's what they were - soldiers from the late nineteenth century. I never associated the forts much with the Civil War.
They only became civil war when they released the first confederates... I don't think anyone thought of them as union soldiers before - they were the cavalry, as opposed to the indians..
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I fully agree with what Hadoque said.
Then again, and at this rate, PM's soon gonna run out of PC-friendly themes.
People are way too touchy nowadays: things are too sanitised. And yet - however ignorant and un-enlightened we were when I was a child 30 years ago - things were still better then. Streets were safer, people were more understanding and caring, and so on and so forth.
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People fly every flag in some part of the world for that reason. Just think of what flying the stars and stripes means to people in Iraq or Afghanistan today. I am sure they do not get a warm fuzzy feeling seeing it.
I am not saying playmobil should not make something, I am saying they should make the other half of the story, omission is lying and therefore becomes propaganda not education.
Are the crusaders not about the crusades? but just a bunch of churchy people on horses who happen to have weapons on their way to a party? :party:
I again am not offended or insulted at all, I can make the other things that Geobra refuses to make to teach my kids about the whole history, its just odd to me and all the judment is silly. There were good things about both south and north, ballance is key.
No one ever said that PM's main priority was to make education toys. Never, ever. And certainly not PM.
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They only became civil war when they released the first confederates... I don't think anyone thought of them as union soldiers before - they were the cavalry, as opposed to the indians..
Yes exactly! The ones I had as a kid were definitely cavalry to us, I never thought of them as Union soldiers. They were riding to the rescue of wagon trains being attacked by indians.
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yes!
well hello? Dinos and Indiana Jones-like guys together? Not very accurate IMO. (just to name one thing)
The main purpose of Playmobil is to nourish kids imagination (and they do that VERY WELL) not to give them history lessons. If you get an education while you are playing, fine!, that's better, but if not, you have school for that. :)
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Yes, they usually try to be accurate in what they do depict, when it comes to historical themes. But clearly there are conscious decisions at times to lean more towards what will capture the imaginations of children based on popular stylized images or fantasies they are used to. Princesses in pink dresses in ornate castles, pirates with eye patches and a parrot on their shoulder, modern day time travelers in the dino theme, etc.
By no means is the toy meant to give children a complete and accurate picture of the entire history of the world. It can at times, where appropriate, be used to assist in education. For example, the current cavalry soldiers could be used for teaching about the Plains Indians Wars. If you want to teach about the civil war, watch Shenandoah. :P
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They could perhaps release both sides of another war that would be less controversial and might be better known as well.
The Pirate theme still has a lot of untapped potential there, it wouldnt hurt if they would release less pirates for once and more soldiers. If they would release a well rounded force of a clear nationality that is different with each batch, it would allow for a great many wars to be played out.
Mostly we seem to be getting Brits which are nice, and I like how they have earlier version brits this time (I prefer that period myself) but maybe they could release some french, Dutch, Prussian, Spanish, etc troops. Aside from the brits they never included national flags after all.
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I don't think there's the need for different nationalities, unless it's something really obvious like the US cavalry or the Romans. The beauty of the PM knights for eg, since the beginning, is that they could have been any nationality. Besides, the problem is that there's always an elemnt of heroes vs villains at play: in the recent knights theme the yellow knights are the heroes and the other ones seem to be the villains. For a long time the cowboys were the heroes and the Indians were the villains, and now they've switched it around (see the ads). I guess the heroes always have the better, bigger sets: I guess it also shows that deep down we are to take the Union faction as the heroes cause they had the forts, the nicer sets and all that; whereas the Confederates were there almost as an afterthought. My point is, you'd have to be careful about portraying any nationality as 'bad'.
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I agree the Indians seem to be the good guys in this latest series. There is a camp with a woman and baby, a home and food, and another set with kids and a pony. The cavalry side only has soldiers, no women or children, or anything to make them seem like people instead of just soldiers.
On the one hand, that is kind of accurate, because at a fort in the middle of indian territory there wouldn't be many women and children, maybe the wives of some officers but that's about it. On the other hand, there could have been a family in a covered wagon or on a nearby farm to make things a little more equal. Then it could be played any way you want... mean soldiers attacking an indian camp, or mean indians attacking a little family on a farm, or soldiers and warriors fighting each other but leaving the women and children alone, or everyone getting along peacefully together.... it would be more open for interpretation.
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The fun of Playmobil is that any scenario is possible.
Want to make bandits attack the indians camp and send the cavalry to the rescue you can.
Want to make the indians attack the fort, you can.
Want to have an indian guide the cavalry to the old mine, you can too.
Any character can be a hero or a villain depending on how you want to play and that's pretty awesome.
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I don't know about you, but nobody wanted to be the indians when we were kids :)
I tend to agree with you ... but the problem is that the design team is interfering more and more. So you end up having klickies with frowny faces (you'd have a hard time pretending they were heroes, those) etc. For eg, the top-hatted cowboy from the recent waves ...
Instead of having a blank canvas, they're ... like I said, interfering a bit somehow.
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They did a good job on the pirates though. Some seem mean, others seem friendly. Its a good mix.
Knights theme is quite terrible in recent years though with the clear good vs evil fight. Better to leave it neutral. In the 90's only the yellow dragons where somewhat evil but opposite of that where many good and neutral factions. All at the same time.
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Yes, the design teams are getting away from the old "let kids make their own story" thing. I think part of it is that a lot of kids don't know how to do that anymore, but that's another rant.
Case in point, the future planet series. I'm sorry, but there is ONE thing you can do with those. THe story is built in. It really stifles the imagination.
Also the recent pirate series. Most of the sets were fine and open to do what you want, but the main set, the island, had a built-in story with little room for imagination.
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Yes, the design teams are getting away from the old "let kids make their own story" thing. I think part of it is that a lot of kids don't know how to do that anymore, but that's another rant.
That's definitely true. I don't think there is as much of a problem with what the design team is making as there is with this. :-\ Then again, I think the historical themes that I collect still allow for more creativity than more modern sets (or futuristic ones).
Also, I see we have a new guru. :lol:
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Also, I see we have a new guru. :lol:
;D
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Yes, the design teams are getting away from the old "let kids make their own story" thing. I think part of it is that a lot of kids don't know how to do that anymore, but that's another rant.
Well, the american boxes of a few years ago were.. shocking that way. Ridiculous.
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Yes, the design teams are getting away from the old "let kids make their own story" thing. I think part of it is that a lot of kids don't know how to do that anymore, but that's another rant.
Case in point, the future planet series. I'm sorry, but there is ONE thing you can do with those. The story is built in. It really stifles the imagination.
Also the recent pirate series. Most of the sets were fine and open to do what you want, but the main set, the island, had a built-in story with little room for imagination.
And these are the very sets that are getting discontinued first, probably due to sales. Hopefully somebody in the company is figuring this out. This is just the sort of thing that PCC members need to be writing in their PCC blogs about. Those blogs give us a way to present these ideas to the company directly in a way that will be more easily noticed than reading deep into some discussion board thread. I just did one on marketing and the playworld concept, but someone else could come along and do one about this. Hinty hint hint
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Hint taken. When I get some time later. I'll do a blog post about this subject.
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I don't know about you, but nobody wanted to be the indians when we were kids :)
We played indians a lot when we were kids. We would pretend to be indians defending our land against British colonist.
We would sneak into their camp and attack them before they could reach their rifles. ;D
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that is exactly what I have been trying to say, balance. Why does Geobra find it necessary to protray history in such a unbalanced/biased way, wether it be Indians and cowboys, religion, Knight, or North versus South. keep it neutral by having both sides equally represented and the kid can play out the story how they choose, not Geobra pre determining.
Maybe I should not have used the word propaganda as it seems to stir up nastiness. To me propaganda is just advertising ones idea/view. I do not think Geobra should advertise the north or Indians or religion unless you also advertise the other, then its neutral or balanced. To me everyone individually is made up of good and bad, not one guy is all good and one guy is all bad.
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True, but your comment regarding the latest batch of union soldiers (it was about that, originally, wasn't it?) is unfair. Specifically because this particular incarnation of the union soldiers has been created within a scenario of classic 'cowboys vs indians'. It's a bit like being annoyed at Dances with Wolves because it doesn't have Confederate soldiers, either.
You and your persecution complexes :P :)
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True, they really did implement the southern soldiers in a great way. Simply having them instead of northern soldiers in a batch. No evil looking clickies. To many kids they would just be soldiers with different uniforms but used for the same purpose. Protecting caravans and such.
Oddly theres no Southern fort though while they seem to release a fort with every western batch aside from that time.
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Did the Confeds have Union-style forts in real life?
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Most of the actual civil war Forts would have been made of cut stone or been mounds of earth thrown up and fenced around cities... these wooden forts that playmobil does most closely resemble trading posts with palisades that were built along pioneer trails.
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Yes, these forts were built to protect against Indian attacks, I believe. During the civil war, I'm sure many existing forts were still in use, but most battles were fought with troops out on the move, and staying in camps.
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Now that would be a good seller for PM, DS or otherwise: a plain tent which could be used - in numbers - for ACW dios, Romans, Napoleonic wars etc, complete with accessories.
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I agree! THat would be neat. There's a green one-man style tent in the new camping theme. If they'd do the same thing in an off white type of color, it would be great.
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I agree with the tent. I bought a job lot of random pieces the other day locally including a teepee and left in all in the bag. I came downstairs and noticed the redcoats were stationed in the tent and a horseless covered wagon. I asked my son why are they in the tent and he said they left the fort and are going to the other fort and are sleeping on the way. Then I thought why don't they just make regualr tents.
For the main topic Haoque has it spot on. I don't think pm has an agenda of making things one sided. If they had not updated both the s&h union and rebel figures with the realease of new "Federal soldier" sets then this wouldn't be an issue, it would simply be pm issuing new 1970-80s calvary figures.
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Well i think is more of a cultural thing,
yesterday with some friends that work for Sony developing games for the playstation, were arguing about one of the nintendos top games, Smash Bros... they were mad saying playstation characters were as iconic as nintendo's... of course not... nintendo in popular culture way more symbolic that playstation characters even their consoles sell more...
culturally the union were more western iconic, they are present in mexican america war, civil war, indians wars... i remember playing indians vs cowboys and indians attacking the fort... Playmobil may not even needed the confederate soldiers... maybe was just a move to sell instead of indians, and stop the slaughter of union soldiers with cannons against the indians...
but again, the cliches in movies, the products we used, even our conception of so many things is based in icons that become symbolic... like santa, like valentines, like movies... etc...
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Pretty much yes, but if they are going to improve cultural aspects in the western theme it might be better if they start with the Indians.
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One thing that most people seem to miss-understand is that the American Civil War (ACW) did not start out about slavery. The industrial north wanted more cotton and other goods and at a lower price.
The south could not lower their price and still run their plantations. In the beginning the total head-count for the American Army was 16,000 Officers and men. So they called for volunteers, i.e.: 4th Ohio Volenteer Regiment.
At first the North was losing and a solution was found-- free the slaves and cripple the south. And it worked.
When the southern states pulled out of the US to form their own government to protect their rights as free states the Federal government backed the northern states. The ACW was already going on when the proclamation of freeing the slaves came out.
The ACW was about states rights and the Stars 'n' Bars was chosen. Oh, and do not forget that the ships that brought the slaves to the US flew the US flag.
-- Donmobil
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Most northeners did not have a better view of the slaves. They didn't want them free, competing for jobs, and did not think they were equal. It was political, economical.
I think there were plans to send them off somewhere (actually, I think some were) - to Africa someplace?
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Well, at some point it did become about freeing slaves, mostly so they could get more slaves fighting on the side of the north, probably. But as donmobil says, the civil war was really about states' rights -- which things should be decided by the state governments and what could be controlled by the federal government. The south contended that we were a loose conglomeration of states who were basically independent, rather than a united country under one government.
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Personly I don't see that conflict in black and white, winners write history after all.
Being Dutch, I never had much interest in the american civil war to be honest, so never looked into it much. I'd gues its a war with no clear good and bad side. Though I would say the same for the american revolutionairy war. Again, from an outsider's perspective.
I'd gues the same might be said vice versa though, about the Dutch revolutionairy war and the civil war that made Belgium its own nation.
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I'd gues its a war with no clear good and bad side.
Of course not... Each side thinks they are the ones on the right, and for its own reasons. The people suffers. On both sides.
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Yep, I think that's usually the case in wars, both sides are sure they're right, or they wouldn't be fighting for it. Looking back on it, the history books paint whoever won as being right. The American revolution and the civil war were both about independence. In the former, the "rebels" won, so it's now called a revolution. In the latter, the rebels lost, so it's still looked on as a rebellion.
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I've never looked at the North being "right" because they won. The southern states were fighting to maintain a way of life that kept an entire race of people in bondage. Sorry south, you're the "bad" guys. Sure African-Americans weren't treated that great anywhere in America, but if that was you, where would you want to live and who would you fight for?
Wait, why are we talking about this???
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While slavery is an outdated concept now, dont forget that it was commonly accepted for the most part of history.
Africans who where sold to america are but a small fraction of the entire history of slavery across the world.
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Guys I must insist again you keep on topic.
If the talk mostly goes about history facts this topic should be on another board and not in "Brainstorming for Playmobil" ;)
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While slavery is an outdated concept now
Slavery in it's old concept, yes. But slavery is manifested in many ways. ;)
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I've never looked at the North being "right" because they won. The southern states were fighting to maintain a way of life that kept an entire race of people in bondage. Sorry south, you're the "bad" guys. Sure African-Americans weren't treated that great anywhere in America, but if that was you, where would you want to live and who would you fight for?
Wait, why are we talking about this???
Oh believe me, I definitely don't condone slavery! That was not my point.
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Oh believe me, I definitely don't condone slavery! That was not my point.
Oh I know Bonnie, I wasn't trying to imply that. :-[ Just the notion, not just yours, that the victor is always the righteous party. Anyway, enough off-topic slavery discussion. Pretty depressing subject really.
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Now let's get back to all those little people we purchased over the years who we will likely never let go and put them to work on whatever projects we can come up with. ;)
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Now let's get back to all those little people we purchased over the years who we will likely never let go and put them to work on whatever projects we can come up with. ;)
I gues at least SOMEONE read my post :lol: :lol: :lol: