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Creative => Customs Gallery => Ships & Vehicles => Topic started by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:03:08

Title: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:03:08
I am proposing a new class of ship. I am naming them the NEW-Class as a working title only.
Below you will see a pic of the basic concept; The hull sections are stackable and expandable, making them infinitely LOOOOOG and as many decks as you want. The upper decks fit into the lower ones by a stepped lower and upper section.
The bow was not address due only to my lack of time and computer skills; If I had a week to do JUST THIS, I would be delivering you the bow as well. If time permits I will do so; In the meantime, accept that the bow is just like the Keel/Bilge, Below Deck, and Deck sections, but without the hatch.

Fixed Hatch: Can not be removed; Hinged
Removable Hatch: Can be removed if necessary.
Mast Hole: Hole through mast for mast to go in.
Mast Notch: Where the mast actually sits.
Mast Support: Raised section to provide support for the mast and deck above.
Pic of Man: Provides an idea of scale; This plan is NOT to scale.


Sales Model: A kit of one bow section, one stern section, and one Cabin would come in a box. The mast would be molded from one already available (though I personally like the Frigate Style mast, FWIW).
Buyers can then order addition below deck and/or bow sections to increase the number of decks, and/or additional keel and deck sections and/or below deck sections to increase length. Each keel and deck section would come as a kit with mast and sails; Each section would come as one kit of applicable hull section, Ø2 guns, and hatch (the keel would not have a hatch, because a hatch through the hull is called a “Scuttle” and opening same would sink the ship- kinda stupid).

How exactly the hull sections to lengthen the hull would connect together I have pu<s>zz</s>led out a few time, but never to my own satisfaction. I suggest that PM’s staff could do better.
The Cabin is nothing more than a decked-over Below Deck with a ship’s wheel installed. Perhaps PM’s staff could do better as well.
I considered making the Decks compatible with some sort of System X buildings to make deck houses a possibility. I have not disregarded this idea outright, but I submit it requires someone a little better at this than some cra<s>z</s>y BM³ (like me).

EDIT: Corrected formatting.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:04:24
Part 1:
This is the KEEL/BILGE and BELOW DECK sections.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:05:42
Part 2:
This is the Deck section.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:06:28
Part 3:
This is the CABIN/POOP DECK section.

EDIT: In the Cabin is a man; He is intended only for rough estimation of the sizes involved. I believe the other below deck hull sections are too short. If so my “very careful” calculations are all wrong and will of course have to be adjusted.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 24, 2011, 03:11:04
Note that each section has Ø2 ship’s guns AND a hatch, set so as not to conflict with one another.
In the first post I mentioned that I wanted to use SystemX to some degree. I’d considered that deck houses could be placed over the hatch opening, rather than actual hatches, to give the hull a more modern appearance, appropriate to say a windjammer, et cetra.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Wolf Knight on March 24, 2011, 07:01:58
Thats a very interesting project Andy!
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: cachalote on March 25, 2011, 02:27:17
:thanks: thank you for sharing this idea with us andy r.
 :hmm: i agree that keeping the water out is a real problem.
tipically one solution would be to let it in and pumpig it out faster - something that only a mechanized set would accomplish.
another solution would be sealed loints (with o-rings for example).
this could work but the appearence of the hull when seen from the outside would be terrible.
what drama.
 :!:maybe if you ask for sir pleamo's help a complete 3-d model could be made to better understand the "scale" of the problems.
 :yup: and he is also a genius on his knowledge of system-x possibilities.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: WarriorOfToys on March 25, 2011, 02:34:30
...
 :!:maybe if you ask for sir pleamo's help a complete 3-d model could be made to better understand the "scale" of the problems.
 :yup: and he is also a genius on his knowledge of system-x possibilities.


That would be very helpful indeed! :yup:
I have skimmed through this, but I have yet to read it all.
Still I like the idea of it,
and I really hope the idea at least can come to be.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 25, 2011, 02:47:29
this could work but the appearence of the hull when seen from the outside would be terrible.
I see your point, but if the edges were irregular (say, like planking), this would be alleviated, but not fixed entirely.
I’m actually more concerned with the hydrodynamics above 4 decks (not including keel/bilge). The NEW-Class may be restricted to dry ship only…:(

I would enjoy very greatly Sir Pleamo’s advice- If only I knew who your were talking about.:(:(

EDIT: Corrected formatting.

SECODN EDIT: I fully admit and accept that the concept is incomplete; I know the basic idea, but I’m not exactly what you’d call a shipwright nor a toy engineer. If there’s anyone here or somewhere else that you know who might be able to take it from basic concept to finished concept, please by all means pass this to them and tell them I said “Do whatever you gotta do with my thanks.”
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on March 25, 2011, 06:48:18
cool
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Jimbo on March 26, 2011, 14:12:49
Nice idea.  Have you tried to "bash" some  sections together with wood, or cardboard, to get a
3 dimensional view?
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Sir Pleamo on March 26, 2011, 15:17:34
Andy R, that's really a great idea, indeed I was thinking about such things too for a while!
maybe if you ask for sir pleamo's help a complete 3-d model could be made to better understand the "scale" of the problems.
 :yup: and he is also a genius on his knowledge of system-x possibilities.


Thanks cachalote for such kindness, but yes, you are right! SYSTEM-X would be the solution! Here are some (few sketchy) ideas about Andy R's Ship-construction. Of course there are Sys-X and scaled in some "standard"-sizes used by playmobil.

:hmm: i agree that keeping the water out is a real problem.
tipically one solution would be to let it in and pumpig it out faster - something that only a mechanized set would accomplish.
another solution would be sealed loints (with o-rings for example).
this could work but the appearence of the hull when seen from the outside would be terrible.
what drama.



I think even the "waterproof"-problem is not a real hard one (even if I have not included them in these pics, but if you are interested in my solution I can post them too.)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Sir Pleamo on March 26, 2011, 15:19:03
...and here are some of the parts in detail which geobra has to bring us
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Gustavo on March 26, 2011, 15:25:00
Wow! But how big would such a ship be? :o
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: WarriorOfToys on March 26, 2011, 15:44:56
OMG Brilliant! :o :o :o
I understand now... ;D
That is an amazing idea Andy! :wow:
I really hope Playmobil starts building ships like this! :love:
Will each section have a mast?
Or will there be the option of 2 sections? :)
And I see you can make it wider as well (something you have already said? :-[ ).
Amazing, I really hope Playmobil looks at this. :clap:
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: cachalote on March 27, 2011, 01:16:05
:) as i told you andy, sir pleamo did the trick.
 :) this is really what can be called "taking it one step ahead".
thank you so much sir pleamo, for showing us andy's idea in 3-d.
i can still see a "looks" problem with the appearance of the vertical joints - planking can just take care of the horizontal ones.
... and i would love to hear sir playmo's idea on how to water-tight this conctruction.

by the way, on another thread you can all see tha potential of sir pleamo's wonderful work - http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=5760.0  ;)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on March 27, 2011, 12:29:09
THere's another thread about an expandable ship:
http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=5892.0 (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=5892.0)

I love the additional thought Andy has outlined, and Sir Pleamo's pics are spot-on awesome!  If only Playmobil would make it reality.

Here is my crude mock-up of how the ship could be expandable.  It would feature a base set consisting of a bow, a stern, and one mid-section piece, forming a tri-mast ship.

The middle piece can be expanded by adding additional mid-section hull pieces.

Additionally, the ship can also be expanded by additional deck levels, allowing multi-decked ships.

Different configurations can be accomplished by adding extra topmasts, spritsail masts, etc....

I want it!

(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/BlackPearl2006_album/expandablePLAYMOship.jpg)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on March 27, 2011, 12:31:24
and to give people a sense of scale if such an expandable ship were to live up to enormous potential:

Just in case anyone was wondering, I decided to play around with some proportions.

Using the 3286 ship as a reference, and basing the size off the playmobil cannons, were Playmobil to release a grand flag ship ala HMS Victory, brandishing 100 guns across 3 gundecks (not including the main deck), AND have a proportionate bottom hull to accommodate a realistic waterline, according to my calculations, in Playmobil proportions, the HMS Playmobil Flagship would be about 1.8 metres long (1.3 metres without the bowsprit) and 1.8 metres tall to the highest mast.

This is about a ratio of 3:1 (as far as length goes) when compared to the existing 3286 ship that is only about 60 cm long, and about the same in heighth.  (technically though, this imperial ship is 9 times bigger than the 3286; it would literally take 9 3286 ships to hack up and join together to make this ship with 3 gundecks totalling 100 guns.  Just in relative cost alone, considering a brand new 3286 at original retail went for about US$80-90, that would bring this size ship to about US$720 at LEAST!)

My measurements may be a little off, but the point is, this thing would be about as tall if not TALLER than me!  (I am 1.6 metres tall). Just to check, I did stack 3 3286 ships end to end and layed down next to them to find that their length did in fact exceed my own.  From the pic you can see the 100-gun warship in playmobil proportions is roughly 3 times as long as the 3286 ship, just to accommodate about 15-16 guns per row (one 3286 can theoretically accommodate about 5 guns across the length of its hull, although Playmobil only gave us 4 ports).

Take a look at this behemoth monstrosity!

(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/BlackPearl2006_album/imperialPLAYMOship.jpg)

Bigger, even, I wager, than MacGuyver's Dolphin.  Hmmm, after looking at how unrealistically huge this would have to be, I am beginning to think MacGayver's Dolphin is the closest we may ever see to a Playmobil multi-decked flagship.  This just seems too big for a company to produce realistically.

I still think it may have SOME hope if it can be built through a series of expansion components.  I think, realistically, perhaps a mere extended hull with a third mast ala MacGuyver's Unicorn may be the best we can hope for from Playmobil, without having to customize one ourselves.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Wolf Knight on March 27, 2011, 13:38:08
Magnificent design!!  :o
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: WarriorOfToys on March 27, 2011, 13:54:59
After studying this a little longer, I think I see a problem...
The ship, with guns, is about 2 steck castle pieces tall! :o
This will work great for in water, but what about on land?
The ships will be fairly ridiculously tall... ???

Unless, you took the bottom section off. :doh:
Still, being that tall...
I think it will continue to raise a few problems. :hmm:
(Mostly production wise.)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: bonniebeth on March 27, 2011, 14:06:01
right, I think that's why they never have produced one this large. But it would be great to have a ship that's really to a realistic scale.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 27, 2011, 21:54:31
WARNING: REALLY LONG REPLY
Nice idea.  Have you tried to "bash" some  sections together with wood, or cardboard, to get a 3 dimensional view?
No. I’m not that skilled. (In fact, I suck.)
Andy R, that's really a great idea, indeed I was thinking about such things too for a while! I think even the "waterproof"-problem is not a real hard one (even if I have not included them in these pics, but if you are interested in my solution I can post them too.)
The only “problem” here is there are no hatches. ¿How are you going to access the below-deck areas without them? (And they need to be a bit bigger to let hands in.)
There is no apparent notch to insert the mast in, and no apparent support for the masts… The second part is a minor one, but there needs to be something to put the mast itself into…
You did, however, potentially figure out how to solve my buoyancy/stability problem in a most inventive way- I’m not sure if you meant to do so or not, but if you look at the hull section (the dark brown pieces in your rendering) you’ll notice that it is, in fact, two pieces connected along the keel- This would allow the Hell to be widened. The problem with my concept was that the hull was a fixed-beam, meaning the more decks you added the more top heavy she became, consequently the more likely she would be to capsize. By making the hull wider, this danger drops. There was a Danish ship who’s name I forget that capsized on her maiden voyage because some Danish king wanted a two-deck warship; It was determined that if her hull was 2 feet wider and draft 1½ feet deeper she would not have.
Either way, a Hell of a start, Sir Pleamo; Though there is no specific “tip of the hat” smiley, I offer one just the same.
Will each section have a mast? Or will there be the option of 2 sections? :) And I see you can make it wider as well (something you have already said? :-[ ).
The idea is that each section of hull has two guns, a mast between them, and a hatch forward of that.
A “section” is length, a “deck” is stories, to clarify. You have to have at least Ø2 sections, a bow and stern. You could have Ø1 deck (though it might look a bit funny).
Wow! But how big would such a ship be? :o
¿How big do you want? The idea here is to make her as big as you want- Even big enough (in theory) to make her into a catamaran for a REAL boat (as silly as that idea may be).
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Giorginetto on March 27, 2011, 22:02:13
right, I think that's why they never have produced one this large. But it would be great to have a ship that's really to a realistic scale.

I sure could do with 2-3 of these lovely ships  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 27, 2011, 22:07:06
SECOND REPLY. (Sorry)
THere's another thread about an expandable ship:
I love the additional thought Andy has outlined, and Sir Pleamo's pics are spot-on awesome!  If only Playmobil would make it reality.
I missed that thread, but it is the basic concept I’ve outlined. You did add that the masts could be expanded as well. (I’d considered that possibility, but wanted to simplify things so that PM might actually move forward- My fear being the more molds they have to make, the less “supportive” they’ll be).
After studying this a little longer, I think I see a problem… The ship, with guns, is about 2 steck castle pieces tall! :o This will work great for in water, but what about on land? The ships will be fairly ridiculously tall... ???
It’s a mistake of perceived proportions. It’s not your fault. It’s the reason we’re working on building the blueprints.
The keel/bilge and lowest deck combined (assuming you built a Ø2-deck ship) would STILL not quite clear a castle wall (assuming it had parapets, that teeth- or block-like section at the top the defenders stand behind).
I sure could do with 2-3 of these lovely ships  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
I need a fleet of a dozen 1Ø-decker 12-sectionals. Forget how many one-section/one deckers I need. :lol::lol::lol:
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: WarriorOfToys on March 28, 2011, 00:45:08
...It’s a mistake of perceived proportions. It’s not your fault. It’s the reason we’re working on building the blueprints.
The keel/bilge and lowest deck combined (assuming you built a Ø2-deck ship) would STILL not quite clear a castle wall (assuming it had parapets, that teeth- or block-like section at the top the defenders stand behind). ...

OH. :wow:
Well then I am all for it. ;D
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on March 28, 2011, 08:22:16
There was a Danish ship who’s name I forget that capsized on her maiden voyage because some Danish king wanted a two-deck warship; It was determined that if her hull was 2 feet wider and draft 1½ feet deeper she would not have.

That would be the dutch ship "Vasa."
(http://www.kiac-usa.com/kingsship3.gif)

If built to original spec it would have fared alright in the water, but the king wanted an additional gundeck.  The engineers were too scared to insult the king to protest and simply did what he asked even though they knew it would mean their doom.  As soon as it set sail it capsized.

Interesting side note: The "Flying Dutchman" in Pirates of the Caribbean II and III was based off the Vasa almost exactly to a T.  You can see the spot-on resemblence.  The Dutchman, however, does not capsize, hehe, probably because it DOESn't have REAL iron cannons on its topmost gundeck (they're fake hollywood cannons)

(http://images.wikia.com/onepiece/images/f/f7/POTC-dutchman-movie.jpg)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 28, 2011, 17:00:21
Well, the VASA does sound right, except I would swear that the one I refer to was found in the ‘9Ø’s. Of course, the ARTICLE was written in the ‘9Ø’s and I could be confused by that.

We’re still working on this little boat people, so ¡keep up the positive thoughts (and comments)!

EDIT: In the Poop Deck image you might think you see two ship’s wheels; That is NOT actually an optical delusion, most ships of that era actually did have two ships wheel. (Why exactly I do not know, but they did.)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Gustavo on March 29, 2011, 02:41:08
Taking a look again at your project, Andy, I do find it a little too big ...
(Specially in the bottom.)

It's a very interesting idea nevertheless!
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on March 29, 2011, 03:35:26
Taking a look again at your project, Andy, I do find it a little too big ...
(Specially in the bottom.)
It's a very interesting idea nevertheless!
So don’t add on sections and decks. Problem solved.;)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Justindo on March 31, 2011, 05:16:14
This is a very well thought out idea and design, Andy! :)9
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: socrates on March 31, 2011, 07:44:12
I missed this thread so far!
Brilliant idea, Andy!  :love:

And an impressive CAD-Version from SirPleamo! I like!

best,
socrates
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Giorginetto on March 31, 2011, 08:30:06
This CAD version is really impressive Sir !!! You should get a job at Playmobil and create new sets for the collector's club !!!!  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on April 01, 2011, 02:32:58
I missed this thread so far!
Brilliant idea, Andy!  :love:
And to think it only took me 2Ø minutes to figure out the puzzle I couldn’t solve in a year.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Hadoque on April 02, 2011, 02:22:11
Very interesting thread and ideas indeed!
I'd love to be able to get a ship where you can add extra sections to build a true "ship of the line".  :captain:

That would be the dutch ship "Vasa."
(http://www.kiac-usa.com/kingsship3.gif)

If built to original spec it would have fared alright in the water, but the king wanted an additional gundeck.  The engineers were too scared to insult the king to protest and simply did what he asked even though they knew it would mean their doom.  As soon as it set sail it capsized.

All correct, except the "Vasa" was not Dutch but a Swedish vessel.
It sank in 1628 in the harbour of Stockholm (Swedish capital), and the very well preserved wreck was salvaged in 1961. It is been kept on display in a museum since then.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on April 02, 2011, 07:01:27
oops sorry i accidentally said it was dutch because of the dutch-style stern and then the fact that the "flying dutchman" from the pirates movie was based off it.   thanks for the correction :)
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on April 03, 2011, 06:24:30
All correct, except the "Vasa" was not Dutch but a Swedish vessel.
She sank in 1628 in the harbour of Stockholm (Swedish capital), and the very well preserved wreck was salvaged in 1961. It is been kept on display in a museum since then.
Hmmm… Now that you mention Stockholm, I do remember something about my mystery ship being associated with that city…
¿Was VASA profiled in national Geographic or Smithsonian magazines?
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Gustavo on April 07, 2011, 01:15:48
So don’t add on sections and decks. Problem solved.;)

I understand your love for scale, but playmobil is toy ::) ... I think your project is very cool, but geobra would never produce it the way it is. To think it viable to produce it, it should be at leas a little smaller ...

But it's an awesome project! :yup:
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on April 07, 2011, 01:43:52
I understand your love for scale, but playmobil is toy ::) ... I think your project is very cool, but geobra would never produce it the way it is. To think it viable to produce it, it should be at leas a little smaller ...

But it's an awesome project! :yup:
¡Make her as small or as big as you want her! ¡That’s the beauty of it! Make her a bow and stern long and one deck (bare minimums), or 25 feet long, 3½ feet wide, and 2 feet deep and actually use her as a kayake… Well, maybe not THAT far out…
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: bonniebeth on April 07, 2011, 03:15:35
 :lol: :lol: :lol: Use her as a kayak!  :lol:
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: BlackPearl2006 on April 08, 2011, 04:03:38
a modular design would also be conducive to some playmobil aircraft carriers.  btw, is it part of playmobil's philosophy to NOT make warcraft at all?  Sorry for being ignorant, but I just now realized there are no playmobil tanks, fighter jets, or military crafts that I can recognize, save for old tallships armed with cannons.. 
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: bonniebeth on April 08, 2011, 04:07:56
Right, they will not even allow customs depicting modern warfare, especially WWII customs, to be shown on any forums or fan sites.
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Andy R on April 08, 2011, 06:30:38
a modular design would also be conducive to some playmobil aircraft carriers.
Well, I don’t see that as being terribly successful; A basic hull can be bilt simply enough, but to build a carrier requires a MUCH greater degree of careful engineering and would, in the end, not be seaworthy; She’d heel over, then eventually keel over, in favor of whichever side the deck angled to (if a through-deck configuration, she’ll favor the island side). Sorry to burst you bubble…
Title: Re: New Ship.
Post by: Rasputin on April 09, 2011, 00:00:19
I have to agree that this is a novel idea. It is so simple it is brilliant. If you look at playmobils house lines. You can purchase a basic modern house for $xxx.xx. Than as a repeat customer you can add a floor for $xx.xx as many times as you have ceiling height. Then if that is not enough you can add a corner for $xx.xx and again as many extensions for this adding more $xx.xx's. and its not over. Now you need to fill the space with more accessories = $xx.xx X y

Hooray for collector as he get to build the ship how ever big or small they want or as much funds you want to use.

& hooray for Geobra as they get repeat business in the pirate category, similar to the houses and knights themes