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General => Report & Review => Topic started by: Martin Milner on September 10, 2007, 16:48:40

Title: 3287 Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Martin Milner on September 10, 2007, 16:48:40
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/3287Front.jpg)

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/3287back.jpg)

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/3287inside.jpg)

A great set to build a jousting tournament around.

You get two mounted knights with full caparisons on the horses, each with a blunt white lance, plus a weapon rack holding axes, maces, swords, and morning stars. A 3-part tilting fence makes sure the competitors charge at each other in a straight line. Two flagpoles fly two flags apiece, and hold a spare shield for use in the non-mounted competitions. I don't think these knight figures have been seen before in other sets. The white/gold knight has armour integral to the figure, while the green knight has clip-on armour.

So many knight figures have appeared in the Playmobil range over the years that a grand tournament could be staged with many different competitions and prizes. I've picked up a few to start my tournaments with (soon to be reviewed).

I'm working on a simple jousting dice-based game that will give varied results quickly, so a tournament can be staged in a couple of hours. two differently coloured dice (I'm using one red and one white die) give 36 possible outcomes. A skill factor will be built in for knights to gain experience by unhorsing their opponent, and possibly a penalty of some sort for dangerous jousting (i.e. hitting the opponent in the head). I'll post details when I have playtested the system.

My only complaint about this set would be the box cover picture - the competitors are on the wrong sides of the fence! They should be approaching with their left sides on the inside, as in my picture below - thus they protect themselves with their shields.

You can learn more about jousting here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_%28jousting%29).

Finally, the jousters pose in front of Canterbury Cathedral.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/Martin_Milner/3319inside-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: playmofire on September 10, 2007, 18:42:42
Nice review, Martin, and thank you.

The blunt jousting lances are a nice detailed touch, but shame about the error on the box.

I notice the shields are blank; is that standard for a tournament?

If you could mount the knights on an RC car chassis running under a baseboard, then you could have a proper tournament.



Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: CountBogro on September 10, 2007, 18:55:09
Very nice review. It is indeed a wonderfull set, allthough (IMHO) a poor second to this set:

(http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3652.jpg)
(with thanks to Collectobil)

But still, it is a nice set and I am still wondering whether or not I should buy it ...

My only complaint about this set would be the box cover picture - the competitors are on the wrong sides of the fence! They should be approaching with their left sides on the inside, as in my picture below - thus they protect themselves with their shields.

You're probably right, Martin, but doesn't that mean that the lance has to go over the horse's neck? Sounds awkward to me. But then again, so does holding a shield over the horse's neck.

Bogro
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Martin Milner on September 10, 2007, 21:19:29
I notice the shields are blank; is that standard for a tournament?

I don't think so - it seems to be a cost-cutting measure by Playmobil. After all, the participants want the publicity. Here's a picture of modern jousting from "The Knights of Royal England" website clearly showing a painted shield and the relative position of the combatants at a joust. The lance goes over the horses neck.

(http://www.knightsroyal.co.uk/pics/gal_o1.jpg)

OTOH, it does allow other knights to borrow the generic jousting shields when it's their turn at the lists.

Later on as jousting developed, the shield became incorporated into the left side of the armour, so it was all one unit.

The older jousting set 3652 certainly had more background interest - I guess it was time to release a new setand they wanted to keep it smaller. I have the trumpeter Klicky from that old jousting set, though not with his original trumpet or hat.
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Tiermann on September 11, 2007, 15:00:23
I love the jousting sets, and don't have this one yet. Note that it's on the discontinued list. This is it's last year available in the International markets, it's gone from Germany already.
At this point I have 15 different jousting caparisoned horses and riders, and one more in parts on the way from DS hopefully. I still have to get the 2 in this set, the white one from add-ons - that also looks like it is being discontinued - and the Dragon knight one. So to my knowledge there are 19 different ones. I will post a photo of mine soon and if I am missing any perhaps someone could let me know. Thanks for the great review.  :)


Also - if you are interested - my illustrations of the jousting caparison types by Playmo is at this page (http://www.animobil.info/accessories/text/3e258fc-2376.html). It's in my accessories section that I am seriously considering eliminating, I may keep a few information pages but it's a bit too much to keep up with and the need can be met through PlaymoDB.
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: sbblabotw on September 11, 2007, 15:31:59
Great review.  It looks like a nice set, heaped up with accessories.  I'm not fond of the new style of horse's headwear - they remind me of Clifford The Big Red Dog in his Halloween ghost costume (http://www.amazon.com/Cliffords-Halloween-Clifford-Norman-Bridwell/dp/0590442872/) but the new coats of arms are great.

Re: caparisons: I have 16 in the database - here they all are (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/textsearch.pl?text=horse+coat&pics=on) - and I know I'm missing the plain purple one in 3669 - Knight (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showinv.pl?setnum=3669) and the white one Tim mentioned from 7762 - Jousting Accessories (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showinv.pl?set=7762). So I'm missing one as well and am quite curious!
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Martin Milner on September 11, 2007, 15:59:21
Clifford The Big Red Dog in his Halloween ghost costume

LOL, I see what you mean! I didn't think they were all that either - Playmobil could have done some printing on them to jazz them up.

Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: cachalote on September 11, 2007, 17:31:03
loved the background on the photo n. 4.
a great review martin, thank you.
:)
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Tiermann on September 11, 2007, 20:34:47
Woops I forgot about not having 30 63 0640 - Horse coat, long, scalloped hem (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showpart.pl?partnum=30-63-0640), I need to remember to check eBay for that one. The two you are missing are the plain red and yellow pleated ones from 3265x - Jousting Knights (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showinv.pl?set=3265x) Heather. If you wold like scans let me know.

So that makes a total of 20.

Pleated:
red
yellow
purple
black with white & red squares
yellow with castle heraldry

scalloped:
light blue with red geometrics from Royal Tent
white with swan heraldry
red with Fleur de Lis
red with rampant lion
red with new Lion head heraldry
black wolf clan
black with green dragon


slashed:
white unicorn
green geometric
black axe knight
purple/pink barbarian
yellow with shield & sword
white with blue & yellow shield
red dragon
yellow with black dragon
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: sbblabotw on September 12, 2007, 12:03:26
The two you are missing are the plain red and yellow pleated ones from 3265x - Jousting Knights (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showinv.pl?set=3265x) Heather. If you wold like scans let me know.
Right you are, thanks Tim.  Yes, I'd love pics of the ones I'm missing, or for which I only have black-and-white instruction scans.  By the way, your diagram with the official names of all the different parts is very useful!
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Timotheos on October 24, 2007, 00:14:42
The set does unfortunately seem to illustrate playmobil's drift away from support figures among the medieval sets when you consider that previous jousting sets also featured spectators or squires or referees.  I wonder if Playmobil in the 1970s-1990s saw an educational role in its medieval sets (including support figures that the average kid wouldn't otherwise have considered)?  Or, was somebody on staff (Hans Beck?) just more excited about the medieval line than today's producers (who pump out knights after knights)?

-Tim

Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: playmofire on October 24, 2007, 08:36:04
Maybe it's just that knights sell better than civilians.
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Martin Milner on October 24, 2007, 10:37:31
I think the split between boys' sets and girls' sets is partly behind the matter. The big fantasy castle has lots of non-combatant figures and almost no be-weaponed figures.

Leaving out all the "background" stuff also cuts the cost to the producer and consumer.

I'm still building my own castle layout, and of course I want some non-combatants in there, so I'm having fun collecting suitable klickies and items on eBay, and putting together a spares order. This would be less fun if it was handed to me on a plate!
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Timotheos on October 24, 2007, 23:30:31
This would be less fun if it was handed to me on a plate!

I agree that we have some personal responsibility to find / make what we want from the toy line.

But, back to the belly-aching: a lot of those great medieval hats from the glory days are no longer obtainable via DS.  But, maybe PM will sneak some back into production as time goes on.

Maybe there's a cultural aspect, too.  Maybe in the 1970s lots of areas in Germany still looked medieval, so what we call medieval buildings doubled as contemporary buildings to children then.  Maybe there was a lot of nostalgia then for the pre-WWII simpler life.  The director Werner Herzog modeled his movie Heart of Glass off a genre of nostalgic / idyllic German film then popular set in provincial villages.  So maybe "rustic" / "nostalgia" was the popular thing in the 70s, whereas now high-tech modern is what attracts adults/kids.
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Timotheos on October 24, 2007, 23:58:40
I decided to stop complaining and start modeling.  I have a book detailing medieval clothing by fashion in chronological order (fashions among the rich apparently changed as fast as they do now; so fast that upper class women fancied removable sleeves which could be changed with the trends without having to throw out the entire gown).

My big complaint with Dungeons and Dragons and Tolkien were that they raised me to believe in a static, quaint medieval world...
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Donmobil on October 27, 2007, 22:13:08
I'm working on a simple jousting dice-based game that will give varied results quickly, so a tournament can be staged in a couple of hours. two differently coloured dice (I'm using one red and one white die) give 36 possible outcomes. A skill factor will be built in for knights to gain experience by unhorsing their opponent, and possibly a penalty of some sort for dangerous jousting (i.e. hitting the opponent in the head). I'll post details when I have playtested the system.

There is already a Playmobil Jousting game called The Tourney here is the link:
http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/PLAYMOBIL/misc/tourney/index.html

Donmobil
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Martin Milner on October 28, 2007, 07:57:38
There is already a Playmobil Jousting game called The Tourney here is the link:
http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/PLAYMOBIL/misc/tourney/index.html

Donmobil

Thanks Don! That's a lot more complex than my idea, which was just a method to get a tournament to a conclusion asap. A nice system, I'll give it a go.

The rules could also be used for Gladiatorial combat with a few tweaks.
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: CountBogro on October 28, 2007, 18:42:06
There are a number of great rules to be found on the internet - from rather silly simplistic to ridiculous complex - and of coarse, you can allways tailor one to your own taste ;-)

Bogro
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Timotheos on October 28, 2007, 19:00:59
My favorite rule system: driving the two knights against each other and flipping a coin to decide who goes down is pretty reliable.

Seriously, though, to second what Bogro said about some rules being ridiculously complex, I'm a little jaded by these games, even when I enjoy playing them.

War games are all abstractions.  I played a lot of Roman Total War on the computer.  It's a great game.  There's a mod called Roman Total Realism that is supposed to bring the game more in line with history.  I played that for awhile, but it introduced its own abstractions on top of the original (and a few blue screens of death).  I then read Caesar's Gallic War and realized that the situations Caesar experienced are not remotely simulated by the game, no matter how good an effort the game made.  It's hopelessly not real, but fun to play.

I don't know what gave me the right to go on this soapbox.....   0) 0) 0) 0) 0) 0) 0) 0)
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: CountBogro on October 28, 2007, 23:46:46
I am rather doubtfull to the realsim of computer - wargames. They are produced too much for the masses. If you're looking for realism (on a certain level) you're more or less bound to the different boardgames that are around. And even then ...

I had bought "Guderians Blitzkrieg" but found the rules to be too complex for me, even though I was sure it was a good game. I swapped it with a friend who turns out to love the system ... (he's definitly more bright as I am).
On the other hand, I believe that most games are based around the principle that they should give you some great times,  so even snakes and ladders can provide that (when you've had enough to drink beforehand  ;D)

And as to the climbing on the soapbox; well ... nobody else was using it at the moment  :lol:

Bogro
Title: Re: 3287 - Knights' Jousting Tournament
Post by: Timotheos on October 30, 2007, 11:13:37
I am rather doubtfull to the realsim of computer - wargames. They are produced too much for the masses. If you're looking for realism (on a certain level) you're more or less bound to the different boardgames that are around. And even then ...
Bogro

I played a lot of those games when I was younger (in the military, we had a lot of players and a lot of time) before the juiced-up computers of the late 1990s hit the scene.

Actually, I miss those days.  Haggling over rules and improvising was part of the experience, something computers now eliminate.  Avalon Hill in the mid-1990s computerized some of its WWII hex-board games, which at the time I thought was fantastic because the computer handled the complex rules.  But, those sort of games appear to no longer be made for the computer, replaced by too many "real-time strategy" (an abomination!). 

And even then ...
Bogro

And even then.... yeah, a lot of these really complex games come across as laughable.  It's difficult to simulate sweat, adrenaline, exhaustion, and raw terror with die rolls and constitution checks, especially when the game designer has probably never experienced what he is modeling first-hand.

Actually, even a perfect wargame is conceptually flawed due to the absence of the player having something real to lose.  A real commander on the field faces career ruin or death if he fails--that contributes to mistakes, et cetera.  Sipping coffee over a game of "Siege of Jerusalem" boils the game down to a very complicated version of chess, not something that actually simulates history.  And, what about hindsight?  How many WWII games make it seem very easy for the Germans to have conquered Russia!  When in reality, due to internal politics, delusions, and conflicts, they were doomed from the start?

These are chess games, not reality simulators..... 

 :hmm: Huh?  (What am I going on about???) :hmm:  :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: