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General => Report & Review => Playmo Research Dept. => Topic started by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:05:45

Title: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:05:45
If you think the answer to this question is ‘It’s printed on the sole of one foot’ you are in good company (but almost certainly wrong)!

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_9857_zpsi4eyehzk.jpg)

I did a search on eBay.co.uk for ‘Playmobil 1974’ and 62% of the listings contained NO parts which could have come from 1974 (on ebay.de the proportion was 70%). The problem is that klicky feet and some accessories may have a date on them, but this is the year of copyright and often moulds* are used for many years and can even be replaced with quite different moulds, still bearing the date of the original one. So dates on Playmobil parts are unreliable.

* I have used the UK spelling of this word which can also be spelled ‘mold’.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:06:43
A little challenge.

Can you put these 7 klickies in order of their date of manufacture, based solely on what you can see in the pictures? All 7 klickies are superficially the same, all-blue male klickies with black hair.

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0132_zpslqkprx2k.jpg)

The following two pictures may help (they are in the same order left to right as the first picture).

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0135_zps5opjeypn.jpg)
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0130_zpse29dqo7n.jpg)

And a close-up of the first picture should also help:
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0132_zpslqkprx2k.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:07:25
Here they are in their correct age sequence. They are types 0 (PMFo),  2 (PMFb), 3 (PMFs), 4 (PMFd), 5 (PMR), 6 (MMR) and 9 (MOR)- the type numbers and abbreviations will be explained later. G is actually a pre-production prototype and is a slightly lighter blue.

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0096_zps0fput7ei.jpg)


All 7 klickies originate from the period 1974 to 1982 (after 1982, all adult klickies had separate ‘hands’). These earliest klickies are very plain, with ‘fixed wrists’ or ‘non-rotatable hands’. The oldest klickies like this, from the very beginning of Playmobil, are considered by some to be rare and collectable. However, fixed-wrist klickies were manufactured in their millions (320 million by 1980 according to ‘The Story of a Smile’), so they are quite easy to find in used lots over 40 years later. Being able to spot the rare ones might be useful.

Luckily for nerds like me, there are clues which can be used to put an approximate age on a given klicky and I will share what I have discovered. Most of the clues allow you to tell, even from a photograph, if a klicky is a genuinely old, 1974 klicky, or one of the later and commoner ones, without having the figure in your hand.

I only used klickies I got from German sources when working out the details of their evolution. I had to use German klickies because when I started looking into this, I discovered I had a mixture of UK ‘Playpeople’ klickies and German ones (but I couldn’t tell which were which in many cases). The Marx ones don’t show the same patterns of features as the German ones. More recently I have discovered how to tell a Marx klicky from a German one with certainty. That is a subject for another topic, however….

After 1982, the free-wrist klickies showed rather little variety and it was only from 1986 on, when torso- and face-printing began (see set 3382 (https://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showinv.pl?setnum=3382)) that klickies started to become more distinctive. But I am restricting myself to 1974 to 1982 fixed-wrist klickies here.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:07:54
Starting points

I became interested in the possibility of determining the age of fixed-wrist klickies when I read   a post by Littledive on Klickywelt  (https://klickywelt.de/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48354&p=635103#p635103)

Later I discovered, also on klickywelt   another helpful topic, by playmorache  (https://klickywelt.de/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=59969),  which describes the very early klickies and even shows some pre-production prototypes, under the heading ‘Certainly one of the best finds since I began collecting’ (so it’s not just me!).

Since viewing either of these links needs Klickywelt membership and some help with translating from German, I have included much of the information from Littledive and playmorache here, but not their photos. The dating of different types after 1975 is based entirely on my own speculations.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:09:27
What to look for

There are several features worth noting when examining a klicky. I have a system of abbreviations to describe the main combinations of features. For example ‘MMRnon’ (one of the commonest types) indicates a klicky with a Molded head, Matched skeleton, Rounded-edges to the feet and the ‘bottom’ has two numbers with a central space. Here is a guide to all the most useful features. I have also created a pdf showing this information, available here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9c8uoslukh73a1d/2019%20Klicky%20details%20to%20observe%20final.pdf?dl=0)

1.Head

P or M- does it have a Printed face or a Molded one? Remove the hair and look inside the head. If you see brown plastic as well as the “pink” plastic, it is moulded, as in the two centre heads below. If the face is printed, is there a straight slot (Ps) or a v (Pv)at the back of the head? (see below). Does it have ‘ears’? Is it made from brown or white plastic (introduced 1978)?

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0125_zpsnzgqccwk.jpg)

2.Skeleton

M or O: what colour is it? (Look at the top of the legs) Does the colour Match the torso, the legs or both (as on the left below)? Or is it an Off-white colour (as in centre and right below)?

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/Offwhite_zpscsm7hcxz.jpg)

It can be difficult to decide for klickies with white torso or legs. It may help to take the klicky apart as in the pictures below (Off-white skeleton is on the right in both pictures).

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/Off-white%20skeleton_zpsgsbooc5m.jpg)

3.Soles of feet


Are they flat or with a lip around the edge? Is the lip Flat or Rounded? Is the central area deep (Fd) or shallow (Fs). What is the impression: a hole on each foot (Fo), a ‘b’ on each foot (Fb) or ‘©1974’ on the right foot and ‘(b) Geobra’; on the left? Is the (b) closed or open? The following pictures show the main types.
 
Fo, flat feet, ‘hole’ on each  Fb, flat feet, ‘b’ on each    Fs, flat edges, shallow centre
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/foot%20soles%201_zpsk0ox0kbx.jpg)

Fd, flat edges, deeper centre  R Rounded edges, closed b   R  open ‘b’ on left foot
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/foot%20soles%202_zpspanvfuss.jpg)

The shallow Fs and deeper Fd  feet types can be hard to tell apart. I found Fs with oo1 type bottom (in 75 out of 76 klickies) and Fd with oo2 bottom (in 49 out of 49 klickies). I found R  with several different types of bottom.

Close-up of the open b
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/openb_zps1zeejvsh.jpg)

4.Bottom

(With the klicky bent forward at the hips, the bottom is the panel at the top of the legs): any circles, letters or numbers?
-o-, oo1, oo2, oo3, non, ono, sos; numbers are 1- or 2- digits.

-o-, small central circle             oo1, small circles widely placed oo2 larger circles closer together 
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/bottom%201_zpsmj1lvys5.jpg)
                                            These two can be hard to tell apart, but oo1 is only found                           
                                            with Fb feet or Fs feet. oo2 is found with Fd  or R  feet.

(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/bottom%202_zps9oqo4y5b.jpg)
ono narrow central mould no. non two mould numbers        sos F and a number in squares

5.Other details

Torso: Is it Male or Female (‘flip hem’)
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0098_zpsedegz5iy.jpg)

Arms: earliest types had a small hole in each wrist.
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0115_zpsl5rlgm3w.jpg)

In 1978 hook-hands and peg-legs were introduced
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0168_zpsto7s6h0z.jpg) (https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0167_zpswksato0k.jpg)
The bottom on peg-legs has one mould number on the right oon
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/IMG_0165_zpshntkhdp3.jpg)
The earliest klickies had flattened toes (below) The ‘prototype’ klicky (below, left) had slightly shallower ‘holes’ in the feet than the 1974 klicky (below, right)
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/foot%20soles%203_zpsem7lq2t3.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 18, 2019, 18:10:20
A Timeline
Using the features described above, I was able to put my 600 fixed-wrist German klickies into 18 groups and work out the sequence in which they were manufactured, as shown in the table below, which is also available to download as a pdf here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/apdy66uq6hlv7mr/2019%20How%20old%20is%20this%20klicky%20Table%2018.04.19%20with%20asterisks.pdf?dl=0).
(https://oi1287.photobucket.com/albums/a621/GrahamB2013/Timeline%20for%20PF_zpsezd3zmbg.jpg)

This table has some ‘discontinuities’ in it (the colouring of the cells does not always follow a consistent pattern). For example, moulded heads are found with ‘earlier’ feet types in rows 3a and 4a. From the timespan column, it is apparent that several different types were being made at the same time (e.g. types 3a to 7 were all made between 1976 and 1978 by my reckoning).

Timespans are based to some degree on speculation, but the end date for many types is indicated by looking at known release dates for particular klicky types. For example, male klickies with white torso, white arms and red legs were first issued in 1979. I found 8 of these showing type 8 characteristics (MMRnon), so that type must have been in production at least as late as 1979.

One final point- I made the assumption that the klickies had not been completely disassembled in the last 40 or so years by the children or adults who owned them. Hair is easily removed, so I ignored hair colour.  In other words, I assumed each klicky still had its original combination of parts. Where a colour combination cropped up which never existed in klickies issued (such as green arms and legs and a blue torso) I knew the klicky was a ‘recombinant’ (custom): this only happened in two cases (neither of them included in the 600)! Furthermore, I found a great deal of consistency in the combinations of parts and in several cases (where I thought a combination did not fit the general pattern) it turned out to be a mistake on my part in recording the details!

So that’s it. Have a look at the soles, bottoms and brainboxes of any fixed-wrist klickies you have and see if you can put a date on them!
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: Tiermann on April 18, 2019, 18:29:29
Well this is an amazing piece of work Graham. Not exactly a surprise from you, but always a wonder to behold. I was most taken aback by the casual "my 600 fixed-wrist German klickies"  though as a collector myself I understand how these things just sort of happen. Thanks for the hard work on this, I am sure it will come in handy to people.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: Macruran on April 18, 2019, 22:49:37
Incredible scholarship. I bet Klickywelt has nothing even approaching this.  :(o):
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: sbblabotw on April 19, 2019, 16:50:33
 :clap: :wow: Graham, we really must talk about getting some of your research on the web. It deserves a wider audience.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: tahra on April 19, 2019, 20:19:09
AWESOME work :wow:

My half educated guess  from the first pics would be:

G E  ( A D F )  C B

The ADF ones I wouldn't be able to sort..  and the C B are obvious, compared to the others, imo...

I am still amazed at the extensive study. :o
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: Daniela on April 20, 2019, 06:10:42
WOW GRaham, this is phantastic!  :o

A real gem of researching and working out!

I am deeply impressed!
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: Birdie on April 20, 2019, 07:33:59
 :(o): :(o): :(o):

This is brilliant, Graham!!!

Thank you so much for the research and the clear and helpful instructions on how to spot the differences.

 :easterhop:

If there were a possibility of getting a Playmo-degree through research, you'd be able to present your Playmo-PhD right now  ;D
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 20, 2019, 09:05:35
Thanks for the comments. I have been fiddling with this for a few years now, after seeing Littledive's Klickywelt post on the subject, in which he said "When and how long the figures were produced, is still being discussed or investigated." Well THAT was a challenge!

I started with my own (smallish) collection of fixed-wrist klickies, but when I realised that they were a mixture of German klickies and Playpeople (made under licence in the UK by Marx Toys between 1975 and 1980) and the two sorts have different patterns, I screamed a bit, then set about buying lots of old klickies from German sellers. (600 was the number I stopped at, there are a few more lying around I didn't include  :-[). They are quite easy to come by and quite cheap, apart from the very early ones. Not surprising really, as 320 million klickies were produced between 1974 and 1980!

Tahra: you did well; see the third post for the answer!

Heather: it's here on PF, it will be on my website shortly. I'm happy for you and anyone else to use it elsewhere. The two PDF documents pretty much stand alone.


I should add that I dismembered all my klickies and recorded details which can't be seen from the 'outside'. It's quite interesting if you are a nerd like me! But with over 100 distinct combinations of parts, it complicates that timeline somewhat so I will save it for the future....
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: StJohn on April 26, 2019, 21:55:57
Great contribution. Many thanks, GrahamB!

A minor addition:

I have an odd fixed-wrist klicky on my hands, with the following features:

1.Head: here lies the problem
2.Skeleton: O
3.Soles of feet: R open ‘b’ on left foot
4.Bottom: sos F and a number in squares [11]

I attach some pictures of the head. Moulded, but in an odd shape. There is no hole at the bottom of the skull, so presumably no keychain klicky. It is a fine, sturdy figure, probably not a reconfigured custom. I think I have seen this only once. Any thoughts about the head?

(https://i.imgur.com/jVIemHa.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/FT22IMM.jpg?1)

Best wishes
StJohn
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: tahra on April 27, 2019, 04:56:05
Found one of those in a lot recently.. I think I noticed in the washing... I had never seen it before..
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on April 27, 2019, 10:03:30
I too have a couple of those. My guess is that they are keychain heads which were used to make standard klickies, using up surplus stock. Since no keychain was ever fitted, the hole isn't there. Perhaps fitting a keychain involved drilling a hole through the hair and into the base of the head, then screwing in the chain attachment. If the hole was not drilled, the klicky would look just like a regular one and could be packed into a set. I don't think Geobra could be cavalier (wasteful) with excess parts back in those days, so it's likely they used surplus parts up. This would also explain why sometimes 'older' klicky parts show up with 'later' ones, such as Flat-edged feet with Molded heads (types 3a and 4a in the chart, MMFs and MMFd).

Mine are types 9 and 10 in the chart (MORono and MORnon); yours, StJohn, is type 11 (MORsos), meaning all three would date from 1978 to 1981 if they fit the pattern -I didn't include either of mine in the 600 on which the table is based, though. Collector shows five fixed-wrist Keychains (none matches my two klickies, nor yours StJohn), four dated 1978, so our keychain heads would fit the timeline.

Anyone with a fixed-wrist keychain (Sylvia?) might be able to help here. I don't collect them, but the few I have don't have this head type, there is a central column into which the keychain screws.

Any more details on yours, Tahra?

Thanks StJohn, great photos!
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: tahra on April 27, 2019, 10:40:34
Anyone with a fixed-wrist keychain (Sylvia?) might be able to help here. I don't collect them, but the few I have don't have this head type, there is a central column into which the keychain screws.

The ones I dechained were like that too - the inside of the head is different.. Don't think I ever did that to a fixed wrists one.. no idea if I have any (to dechain or mount3, if so - we don't do keychains :P )

Any more details on yours, Tahra?

Now I can't find the pic... :wall:
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: klickyklack on February 07, 2020, 04:36:42
(oops, necroposting again, sorry!)

WOW!  This is fantastic, thank you for your research & dedication Graham! :heart: Needless to say my small crew of fixed hand klickys are going to be experiencing a lot of bending over & scalping for examination over the next couple of days.

Question re. frames.  What if the frames are neither matched colour OR white/off white?  I have 2 all yellow guys that I've been wondering about (moulded head, no ears, ONO frame, closed b, rounded edge? type 7?) but they have black frames.  ???
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on February 07, 2020, 15:40:15
Black frames were found on some Playpeople klickies assembled* by Marx Toys in Swansea between 1975 and 1980.

All Playpeople klickies had fixed wrists, so it's quite likely that if you get fixed-wrist klickies from a UK source, they will be Playpeople.

Playpeople klickies are not really that much different from German klickies of that era, but if such things are important to you, I believe it is possible to distinguish these klickies from German- (or Malta-) manufactured ones, by looking for one or more features (e.g. black skeleton on a figure with non-black torso and/or non-black legs), but I haven't got around to posting all the features to look for on here yet (Interest in Playpeople PM is strictly a niche interest, restricted to Brits, apart from the dark blue British Bobby figure with helmet, unique to Playpeople, which seems more widely valued by collectors outside the UK), perhaps I should do that....

Some colour combinations were unique to Playpeople klickies too, see here (https://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=12751.msg237950#msg237950).


*I have been unable to discover whether Marx Toys actually manufactured any parts; I suspect they assembled klickies and sets from parts manufactured by Geobra in Germany and Malta.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: klickyklack on February 07, 2020, 19:07:48
Black frames were found on some Playpeople klickies assembled* by Marx Toys in Swansea between 1975 and 1980.

All Playpeople klickies had fixed wrists, so it's quite likely that if you get fixed-wrist klickies from a UK source, they will be Playpeople.

Playpeople klickies are not really that much different from German klickies of that era, but if such things are important to you, I believe it is possible to distinguish these klickies from German- (or Malta-) manufactured ones, by looking for one or more features (e.g. black skeleton on a figure with non-black torso and/or non-black legs), but I haven't got around to posting all the features to look for on here yet

Thank you Graham!  I think I'd done a search for black frame & nothing had come up, I should have looked for black skeleton!)  ::)   The link to your other thread is most helpful!

The Marx ones feel very different to me than the German klickys of the same era, plastic feels lighter & more brittle (more like the feel of the 1974 ones, or maybe I'm imagining this!?). 
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on February 08, 2020, 09:57:15
The Marx ones feel very different to me than the German klickys of the same era, plastic feels lighter & more brittle (more like the feel of the 1974 ones, or maybe I'm imagining this!?).

And the faces on earlier Playpeople klickies seem to be embossed on, rather than merely printed on, which reduces their quality, IMO.
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: Bateman on February 08, 2020, 17:49:52
Thak you Graham!
Such a detailled and fantastic research that you share with us.
Absolutely absorbing. Even if I collect Klickys for many years this is really unique and was so interesting to read and follow! :thanks:
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: klickyklack on February 08, 2020, 17:55:44
And the faces on earlier Playpeople klickies seem to be embossed on, rather than merely printed on, which reduces their quality, IMO.

So the eye & mouth shape are indented into the head & then have screened eyes & mouth?

The 2 Playpeople I have have quite different faces weirdly, but I have another non-fixed hand guy that came with his face rubbed off & rather than just being printed on or the injected face, his face has the shape of his mouth & eyes indented into his face.   

I'm sure most members have seen all this stuff before, so apologies for annoying newb questions.  Even though I've been buying Playmobil sporadically since the 90's I haven't collected or paid attention IN DETAIL & now I am I have many questions & things to look into.  :lol:  8}
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: GrahamB on February 10, 2020, 09:27:11
I'm not sure how the face was added to the earlier Playpeople klickies. In the worst cases, it looks as though the eyes and mouth were die-stamped on with a hot die. Maybe the pigment was added at the same time or later.

I'll find some examples and post pictures.

If the pigment was rubbed off, the outline of the eyes and mouth would still be visible if the die-stamping method had been used.

Don't apologise for being new here or asking lots of questions!
Title: Re: How do you tell when a (fixed-wrist) klicky was manufactured?
Post by: klickyklack on February 14, 2020, 09:05:31
I'm not sure how the face was added to the earlier Playpeople klickies. In the worst cases, it looks as though the eyes and mouth were die-stamped on with a hot die. Maybe the pigment was added at the same time or later.

I'll find some examples and post pictures.

If the pigment was rubbed off, the outline of the eyes and mouth would still be visible if the die-stamping method had been used.

I think I know what you mean from having seen more of them since, but look forward to the photos.  With the one I have whose face printing has worn off, the eyes & mouth outline is still there.  Definitely not as nice in quality, but interesting all the same (I'll have to find some interesting use for mr no-face ).