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Creative => Customs Gallery => Topic started by: tanotrooper on November 25, 2011, 00:40:22

Title: The Hellenistic World
Post by: tanotrooper on November 25, 2011, 00:40:22
Greetings!

I was playing around with the new parts from the Prehistoric set I've just bought and saw I could put another spear in the new spear, so:

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Tanotrooper/playmobil/hellenisticworld/macedonianphalangite1.jpg)

This meant I had to make a Macedonian Phalangite to accompany the large weapon...

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Tanotrooper/playmobil/hellenisticworld/macedonianphalangite2.jpg)

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Tanotrooper/playmobil/hellenisticworld/macedonianphalangite3.jpg)

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Tanotrooper/playmobil/hellenisticworld/macedonianphalangite4.jpg)

... which meant I had to make an Indian bowman as his adversary ...

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Tanotrooper/playmobil/hellenisticworld/indianinfantry1.jpg)

... which meant I had now started a new theme for my custom figures. :lol:

The theme is the Hellenistic world, a period in history which began when the Macedonian armies defeated Greece (thereby ending the golden period of Classical Greece) and ended when they themselves were conquered by the armies of a citystate called Roma.

This period is symbolised however by one man, Alexander the Great. He was able to create a vast Macedonian empire on a very short period of time, defeating the might Persian empire and entering the (from European point of view) border of the world by entering India.

The period is also symbolised by the 'perfection' of an originally Greek fighting technique, the phalanx:

(http://strategus.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Macedonian-Phalanx.jpg)

Whereas the Greek hoplites in Classical times fought with spears of about 2-3 meters length, the Macedonian Phalangites fought with the sarissa, a massive pike/spear measuring about 6 meters or longer. (I'll have to add another segment to my Phalangite to get the right length.) The sarissas (sarissae?) proved superior to the shorter Greek spears but would also become the downfall of the phalanx. (There are records of soldiers gripping the long weapons so that they would become useless.) The Roman century and it's armement would prove superior and was able to break through the phalanx.

The sides and back of the phalanx were vulnerable, so cavalry had to secure those parts. The troops in the front rows usually had the most armour, those in the back usually had none. Since the sarissa was so heavy, a counterweight was attached at the end so that it was easier to hold and handle. The sarissa was held with two hands, the shield (which was smaller than that of a Greek hoplite) was attached with straps to the arm.

The phalanx formation had gone extinct but returned in full glory on the European battlefields of the 15th-16th century until the pike was replaced by the musket.

The Indian bowman was based on this image:

(http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Boxes/CAS8154Box.jpg)

When Alexander entered India, some tribes joined him while others opposed him (such as king Porus). India was a completely new world for the Macedonians and brought new ways of warfare, such as the use of war elephants (Yes, of course I'm going to make war elephants for this theme! :D ) The Egyptian theme will provide great parts for these Indian troops.


So that's it for now, I'm going to test if I can make the sarissa any longer and will then try to create a small phalanx.

Cheers,

Gaetano

P.S. These pictures were taken with my new cellphone. They looked better on my cellphone... :lol:
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: cheng on November 25, 2011, 01:20:04
very historically accurate customs Tanotrooper!! :love:
..very good idea with the new stone-age spear shafts!
(I was hoping to see more uses for them after adding them to my zulu shields)
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: kenc on November 25, 2011, 08:33:12
veeery clever!  :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: WarriorOfToys on November 25, 2011, 16:15:34
Very nice custom TanoTrooper. :wow:
And I learnt something from the time period that I hadn't known before. :)

I am in the process of making my own Macedonian Phalanx,
But my soldiers will look quite different from yours.
I am trying to replicate different helmets for instance. (See Attached)
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: conniefrere on November 25, 2011, 16:45:10
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Magnificent, both the customs as the accompanying summary of Hellenistic warfare.
BTW do you know what made the roman warfare so great so they could counter the phalanx?

 :wave:
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: WarriorOfToys on November 25, 2011, 19:06:23
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Magnificent, both the customs as the accompanying summary of Hellenistic warfare.
BTW do you know what made the roman warfare so great so they could counter the phalanx?

 :wave:

Their use of reserves? ???
Actually I am quite intrigued by this if TT isn't. ;D
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: conniefrere on November 25, 2011, 19:44:42
Their use of reserves? ???
Actually I am quite intrigued by this if TT isn't. ;D

It's a question I hoped TT might know, it could be the use of their specific shields in battle, Testudo formation or the wedge formation.
Probably a lot of facors made the roman army one of the best armies. I was just wondering.
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: PlaymoMan on November 25, 2011, 20:56:08
It's a question I hoped TT might know, it could be the use of their specific shields in battle, Testudo formation or the wedge formation.
Probably a lot of facors made the roman army one of the best armies. I was just wondering.


I'm not really sure how the Romans managed to get past the long spears of he phalanx, but once they got past them, they could easily cut down the Hoplites because the spears were very hard to maneuver around. :)
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: WarriorOfToys on November 25, 2011, 21:43:29
I think a wedge formation followed by a large push with reserves would break nearly anything.
Their shields would also have been a massive advantage when they closed,
The Macedonian pikemen only carried very small shields,
and their swords were more like daggers.

Getting past the spear points would have been very difficult.
Since there were several rows with their spears down
the Romans wouldn't have to only get past the first row,
After they did they would have to deal with the pikes behind.

I know that in one battle the Romans retreated into hillier country
and the Macedonian Phalanx were broken up,
allowing the Romans to file into the gaps left in their lines
and attack the sides of the formation.
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: Bill Blackhurst on November 25, 2011, 21:53:53
Great historically accurate custom design using Playmobil parts :wow:! Well done :)9!
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: conniefrere on November 25, 2011, 22:12:53
Thanks for this info WoT.

It would be nice to see some photographs of Roman Wedges attacking hoplite phalanxes playmostyle!
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: tanotrooper on November 26, 2011, 00:04:40
Thank you all for the great comments! :)

Here's an image portraying Romans versus the phalanx:
(http://s2.hubimg.com/u/5273861_f520.jpg)

I'm not exactly sure how the Romans were able to defeat the phalanx (I'm not an expert in this part of antiquity), but if I recall correctly there are reports of Romans retreating to the high ground during battle which was a huge disadvantage for the phalanx. (If the hill is steep, the sarissas have to be held more vertically. This way, a quick counterattack would mean that the sarissas couldn't be lowered on time or lowered enough to be effective in battle.)

Most Roman troops carried the heavy scutum (more rounded than the later rectangular version) which meant that the sarissas wouldn't be able to penetrate the shield. I suppose the scutum could be used to form a slope, so that the spearheads would go upwards, forcing the phalangites to go in close quarter combat. (And Romans were experts at this.)

The phalangites' weaponry consisted of the sarissa and a short sword, while most Roman troops used several projectile weapons. (The first line of the army, the velites, were designed to throw several (up to eight!) javelins and then retreat. The hastati and triarii both carried two pila.) A rain of projectiles would certainly be able to break the phalanx up enough to force them into close quarter battle.

A last point that would give the Romans an edge is the fact that a Macedonian line would be made up of several blocks (the phalanxes) with space in between. The phalanx is basically a big block of men and would be difficult to manoeuvre. The Romans also had a large amount of troops, but they would have been divided into a lot of smaller units. (I'd say the centuria but I'm not sure if this term was used before Marius' reforms.) This way, the Romans might have simply outmanoeuvred the phalanx. (The phalanx got its power at the front, where all the weapons were pointing the same way. The sides and back were unprotected and it was very difficult to change the direction of the sarissas quickly. (Whereas the Romans would only be carrying their gladii (short swords) by then.)

In the end, the phalangite was a feared soldier when in formation but once the formation broke, the infamous sarissa would become a clumsy burden. (I can imagine that the middle and last rows wouldn't even have had the space to drop the sarissa, so that every row had to fight on its own.) Once in close quarter combat, the Roman soldier would have the upperhand. In the end, the Roman army proved superior, both in tactics, organisation, equipment and training.

WarriorOfToys: I'm also planning on using several helmets, I was thinking about using the 'Egyptian/Mongolian' helmet, either by itself or on a different helmet. The Macedonians do seem to be a lot more uniform than the Greek hoplites were. :)

Cheers,

Gaetano
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: cheng on November 26, 2011, 01:09:27
this is all new to me....very interesting discussion, guys!
who knows, I might get drawn into customising a "phalanx"..sounds like something at the back of our throats :P
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: cardensb on November 26, 2011, 01:42:06
Looking forward to a phalanx of klickys.  Might want some cavalry to attack from the flanks too.
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: PlaymoMan on November 26, 2011, 14:23:01
Looking forward to a phalanx of klickys.  Might want some cavalry to attack from the flanks too.

Yes, me too!

I wish that Playmobil would make an Ancient Greek series. Although, I recall seeing a thread in the archives that stated that Playmobil had no interest in producing an Ancient Greek series. :'(
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: WarriorOfToys on November 26, 2011, 17:25:24
Thank you all for the great comments! :)
...

WarriorOfToys: I'm also planning on using several helmets, I was thinking about using the 'Egyptian/Mongolian' helmet, either by itself or on a different helmet. The Macedonians do seem to be a lot more uniform than the Greek hoplites were. :)

Cheers,

Gaetano

Oh! So I was not the only one to think of that! :doh: ;D
Maybe if we sanded off the bottom of the helm and attached that to a Roman helm?
I'll try that with some of mine when I get them. :)
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: tahra on November 26, 2011, 19:42:59
I wish that Playmobil would make an Ancient Greek series. Although, I recall seeing a thread in the archives that stated that Playmobil had no interest in producing an Ancient Greek series. :'(

Yep, along with aliens, vikings, romans.....  Dinos...
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: Giorginetto on November 27, 2011, 20:25:42
The failure of the Roman and Eguptian series to last , both were very short lived , makes it impossiblw i reckon for playmobil to go into an ancient greek theme etc etc ...  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: Justindo on January 29, 2012, 19:07:12
The failure of the Roman and Eguptian series to last , both were very short lived , makes it impossiblw i reckon for playmobil to go into an ancient greek theme etc etc ...  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Although an entire theme of Ancient Greece would be nice, I'd settle for one or two Hoplite Specials for army building. :prays:
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: WarriorOfToys on January 30, 2012, 04:52:11
Although an entire theme of Ancient Greece would be nice, I'd settle for one or two Hoplite Specials for army building. :prays:

 :yup: :yup: :yup:
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: Giorginetto on January 30, 2012, 07:49:07
:yup: :yup: :yup:

I couldnt agree more. Soem of these new specials are so ugly and of limited appeal i really wonder why they dont produce a greek hoplite as such as a special first and see how it goes. they could expand that theme into ancient olympic games , some ancient greek ships and probably create a mythology theme , like the 12 heroic acts of Hercules . Playmobil i think is really missing to produce a really appealing line that will have educational significance also ...  :) :)
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: conniefrere on January 30, 2012, 17:58:11
probably create a mythology theme , like the 12 heroic acts of Hercules .

Would bring along some nice animals/monsters too.  :)

Besides the mythology of Hercules, some other famous myths would be nice: Jason and the Argonauts (Hercules was of course one of them too) Theseus and the minotaur and Daedalus and Icarus.
Title: Re: The Hellenistic World
Post by: Vauban on February 05, 2012, 08:20:46
I couldnt agree more. Soem of these new specials are so ugly and of limited appeal i really wonder why they dont produce a greek hoplite as such as a special first and see how it goes. they could expand that theme into ancient olympic games , some ancient greek ships and probably create a mythology theme , like the 12 heroic acts of Hercules . Playmobil i think is really missing to produce a really appealing line that will have educational significance also ...  :) :)

Yes, yes, yes  :love:

Back to the topic: great customs and a very clever idea to use the stone age spears :)9

Greetings

Vauban