PlaymoFriends
General => News => Topic started by: Martin Milner on February 18, 2009, 12:50:30
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Can any American parents tell me why American children should show any interest in the Knights theme?
In Europe we had these guys running around for several hundred years, and in the UK you can barely throw a rock without hitting a castle or a battlefield site, but the same isn't true of American soil.
Where does the interest come from? Is it taught in History class, is it via TV, film and video games, or is it just that knights are the very essence of coolness?
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Well for one Martin most of us here are not Native Americans ;)
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I remember some of my first toys were Knights, and of course we made wooden swords and shields to "bash" each other. This would be late '40s, early '50s. We didn't get TV
in the valley until I was a teenager.
I think the first Playmobil I got was from the Knight theme, so maybe Knights are just
cool 8-).
My two bits worth,
Jimbo
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Can any American parents tell me why American children should show any interest in the Knights theme?
In Europe we had these guys running around for several hundred years, and in the UK you can barely throw a rock without hitting a castle or a battlefield site, but the same isn't true of American soil.
Where does the interest come from? Is it taught in History class, is it via TV, film and video games, or is it just that knights are the very essence of coolness?
This question could probably be well and fully answered in 6 or 7 volumes. ;D Briefly, though, as Rasputin suggests, most "Americans" are of European descent. The "Knights theme" runs all through our popular culture (one of my favorites as an example: the movie Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.) Another way to answer your question is with another question: "Why is the "Western" (i.e. "Cowboys and Indians") theme so popular in Europe?" :)
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Well for one Martin most of us here are not Native Americans ;)
Well said Ras! My heritage is English, Scottish, & Shawnee Indian! I myself was always fascinated with the formidable ornate designs of the Knights armor suits, & beautiful castles! Indianna brought to light an interesting question also, why is the European population so attracted to the Cowboys vs. Indians, & South vs. North war that they became popular Playmobil themes world wide, could it be for the same reasons ????
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CASTLES!!!
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Can any American parents tell me why American children should show any interest in the Knights theme?
In Europe we had these guys running around for several hundred years, and in the UK you can barely throw a rock without hitting a castle or a battlefield site, but the same isn't true of American soil.
Where does the interest come from? Is it taught in History class, is it via TV, film and video games, or is it just that knights are the very essence of coolness?
Hm, good question. Maybe because people have the same roots? (Maybe because Hollywood -- in the US -- is making big and impressive knight movies?) I think for sure it is because knights are cool 8-)
So another good question might be: why are Europeans are interested in the American Civil war or American Indians and Cowboys ;) (I think those type of guys hadn't be running around here in Germany on those days)
Or samurais might also be a good example.
As you said: I think all have in common that they are cool.
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Well for one Martin most of us here are not Native Americans ;)
This I knew already, did my question suggest otherwise? :hmm:
So, given that a large proportion of US citizens come from European stock, is it a matter of personal history taught from father to son, or is it taught in schools?
Over on Playmoboard I got a lot of very good and enlightening answers.
Regarding the Western theme being popular in Europe, right now it isn't, and I think the lack of anything other than accessory items in the theme reflects that. When I was a kid we saw a lot of western films and TV series, but now I can't think of one being shown on TV in months, so really it was the Hollywood influence.
My mother has films of my 5th birthday party, and I'm pretty sure a few of my contemporaries were dressed as Cowboys or Indians - I wonder what a 5 year old would choose for a costume party today?
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Power Rangers, Batman, Spiderman, Superman to name just a few are the current fads. But as for the Lone Ranger, Tonto, & The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly, well let's just say, they're not so high on the want list now days! With that being said, is the influence by the knight theme, romans, etc. because of parents buying them to fulfill their child hood dreams through their children? Maybe the children of today don't originally ask for these themes, but parents buy them as an influence, & soon the parents justify an army or legions because Johnny seems to like it, but actually it's daddy!
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So, given that a large proportion of US citizens come from European stock, is it a matter of personal history taught from father to son, or is it taught in schools?
In "western culture" an over-arching theme is the heroic quest that "good" undertakes to overcome "evil." The "knights" theme is just one genre in which that story is told. In the U.S.A. we pass it to our children with bedtime stories, toys, books, movies, TV shows, games, etc. in which the gallant knight is a common character. And, yes, European history is indeed taught in our schools (though more often at the "post-playmo" age level.)
That same good-versus-evil story (though which side is good, which evil?) runs through other genres as well. "Cowboys and Indians" and "North versus South" (U.S. Civil war) are uniquely "American" themes yet they appear to be of great interest to folks from other places, too. There are many interconnections between these genres. For example, the stories of Cowboys and Knights have many similarities - there was even one old western TV show here in the states called "Have Gun, Will Travel." The main character was a hired gun who only killed bad guys. His name was Paladin (an ancient French knight) and his business card featured a picture of a chess knight. His theme song, in part, went: "'have gun, will travel' reads the card of the man, a knight without armor in a savage land."
In another example of genre interconnections, there is a school of thought that the book "Ivanhoe" by Sir Walter Scott (a tale of knights in the time of the crusades, Richard the Lion-Hearted, and Robin Hood which was published in the early 19th century) was actually a major factor leading to the American Civil War. The book was extremely popular in the American South and may have reinforced the feudal philosophy of slave-holding plantation owners. Mark Twain felt this was so and called this way of thinking the "Scott disease." "Ivanhoe" on its own terms is a spanking good story and I am sure Sir Walter Scott did not set out to cause this kind of trouble - I just think it is a fascinating historical connection.
How about "Star Wars?" Is it science fiction or is it a Knight's Tale? Or maybe a Western?
Here in the states, we also tell our children stories about Aladdin and the Magic Lamp, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, 1001 Arabian Nights and countless other tales of the East and elsewhere.
Bottom line is that everybody loves a good story with lots of adventures and exciting details about far off places or times and Playmobil has been clever enough to capitalize on that fact. :yup:
Over on Playmoboard I got a lot of very good and enlightening answers.
Also got a bit snarky, though, wouldn't you say?
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One person (SirTurk) decided to get snarky with one other (Necrono), for stating his experience without clarifying he was speaking from his own experience. The same person recently left this forum after a week of snarky replies and unpleasant facetiousness. I guess he's not at peace with his inner self right now. :(
I hadn't heard the Ivanhoe Theory before, I'll have to read up about that. I've never read the book, but it seems unlikely (to me, in my ignorance) at first glance that a single book could be responsible for a war starting 42 years after its publication. If Mark Twain was convinced though, there may well be some truth in it.
Interesting how the rise of the Superhero and science fiction in popular culture mirrors the demise of the Western. When did Superheroes really kick off as a popular, or even a cult, interest? I'm guessing the Fifties, a time when Americans, basking in the greatest concentrated wealth and comfort ever seen on the planet, looked to an uncertain future with mixed emotions of hope and fear, and comic books were the staple reading matter for millions of young Americans.
Lots of good inforrmation and ideas, many thanks folks! It seems like there is a degree of schoolroom teaching about medieval knights which could spark an interest, but also many popular cultural influences through film, TV, videogames, other games (such as collectible card games) and books.
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My mother has films of my 5th birthday party, and I'm pretty sure a few of my contemporaries were dressed as Cowboys or Indians - I wonder what a 5 year old would choose for a costume party today?
Maybe as CSI, in the Navy or from New York, Miami, ...
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Can any American parents tell me why American children should show any interest in the Knights theme?
In Europe we had these guys running around for several hundred years, and in the UK you can barely throw a rock without hitting a castle or a battlefield site, but the same isn't true of American soil.
Where does the interest come from? Is it taught in History class, is it via TV, film and video games, or is it just that knights are the very essence of coolness?
We Americans search for identity in the places and cultures where we (er ... our ancestors ;D ) came from.
For instance, in search of an African identity, there came up the "blackpower" culture movements, since the seventies.
European origin people (like me) search for European patterns for better understanding who we are, and think and know what we can be today. A man has to learn about his own people's history, so as to learn to be proud about who he is. In a deeper way.
There's a lot of guilt in extermination of native American peoples. Well yes, we (specially my ancestors, yours had nothing to do with it ... you're in Europe, after all .. Your wife, on the other hand, isn't European, if I recall it well. Or is it someone else's? Not sure) we (my ancestors) (in a way) actually killed the peoples who lived here before us, so that we could come to live here. It's the cruel history of humanity, not far different than what happens in the Middle East, since long long time ago. Peoples kill others to get their lands; kill the warriors, enslave the women, and throw the babies from the cliffs. That's what happened in America. From north to south. And it's our doing. My viewpoint, and it's ... somewhat a religious point of view. Many may disagree of what I say, but it's a point of view, so, I have the right to have it. And I won't fight about it, or think unfair if this commentary is erased. We aren't supposed to speak about politics or religion here.
I spoke about native Americans because these are the main ethnies in America: we're European (in speech), many among us came from Africa from the beginning of the colonization (1600, 1700s), and well, before us, there were people(s) here, who were defeated (and, yet, some of them survived, remain, and are supposed to be proud about being who they are).
So, how come that we Americans (either "English"/E'angeese (Les Anglaises > Yankees) or Spanish and Portuguese) come to understand knights, castles and dragons as a bit of our own culture? Some (most actually, or, at least half*) of us came from where these things are part of culture, so we brought them with us.
As well as cinema, and literature before it, took north American "Indians" and Western (in)to Europe.
And now we have internet, so that we can even talk about it! :hmm: Crazy, aye?
*Lets say, one third European, one third "Afro", one third divided into native Americans (very few remaining), and later imigrants, from the second half of the XIXth century, in Brasil, for example, there's a lot of Lebaneese (called "Turks", because they came to Brasil through Turkey and, therefore, with Turkish papers), Chinese (in Rio de Janeiro), Japanese (in Sampaulo there's huge Japanese population), and from the period of the War (the Great War ... before the second one), many Italian and German imigrants came, Italian mainly to Sampaulo, and German to south of Brasil, and to Uruguai and Argentina ...). My ancestors are Italian. I'm the fourth Brasilian generation of an Italian bookman, who was on his way to Argentina, but, because of seasickness, decided to stay in the first reasonable port he could believe to stablish himself :lol: ... So, he stayed at Bahia, northeast of Brasil, and it was my grandpa who came to Rio, later on.
And all this not to count on ethnical mixtures (European and Afrodescendants, in Brasil, is widely spread, which makes us a ... kind of a tolerant people, I think, among ourselves), and not to count other Europeans from the beginning of colonization, who disputed the possetion of the land: in northern borders of Brasil, there's a lot of Dutch and French(ies), there are two countries north of Brasil, Suriname, which is Dutch, if I'm not mistaken, and French Guiana ... And there's a lot of history of Dutch dispute for Recife, one of the main northern Brasilian towns, which was, by the way, founded, if I'm not mistaken, by the Dutch. Like the Big Apple ...)
This is America! Lots of people, in lands of ... most everyone. Now, it's Americans'. English on the north, Spanish ... around, and Portuguese in Brasil.
Besides that, Ron T. and mr. Bilbo Baggins became quite famous worldwide during the XXth century ;D
8}
Gus
:blackhair:
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I hadn't heard the Ivanhoe Theory before, I'll have to read up about that. I've never read the book, but it seems unlikely (to me, in my ignorance) at first glance that a single book could be responsible for a war starting 42 years after its publication. If Mark Twain was convinced though, there may well be some truth in it.
It does seem hard to believe, doesn't it? One place that Twain laid out his thoughts on this subject was in a collection of essays called Life on the Mississippi which was published in 1883. Here is a paragraph from Chapter 46 (http://www.online-literature.com/twain/life_mississippi/47/) (the full text of the book is available online at the same location.)
Sir Walter had so large a hand in making Southern character, as it existed
before the war, that he is in great measure responsible for the war.
It seems a little harsh toward a dead man to say that we never should have had
any war but for Sir Walter; and yet something of a plausible argument might,
perhaps, be made in support of that wild proposition. The Southerner of
the American Revolution owned slaves; so did the Southerner of the Civil War:
but the former resembles the latter as an Englishman resembles a Frenchman.
The change of character can be traced rather more easily to Sir Walter's
influence than to that of any other thing or person.
Also, re snarkiness, a second look proves your point: most of the discussion on Playmoboard was good and informative - it was just those few comments you referenced that were a bit over the top. :)
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if it's sophisticated contributions you are after martin, i think we can beat playmoboard's "very good and enlightening answers". :P
indianna introduced an interesting point - the "over-arching".
it reminded me of archetypes and their essence as carl jung defines them.
maybe iconographically the medieval theme is the one that best let us use this archetypes.
if you join it with the "magic" theme you can cover all of them.
if you believe jung is right we all (including children) play or act according to pre-defined types, whatever culture or place we come from.in the medievel theme you can easily mix the five basic archetypes (self, shadow, anima, animus, persona) creating heros, anti-heros, magicians, etc..
you can see this use in a lot of places (even on richard's kinkdomality) and using medieval characters seems to work better than construction workers (another playmobil theme).
maybe we used them so many times in europe that, seeking fot new "scenarios" we chose cowboys and indians more recently, or even samurais (kurosawa's "ran" is notvery different form shakespeare's "king lear").
to shorten this replie, i guess we always look for "plain" characters and plots.
the medieval times do this wonderfully, and it is difficult to escape its "strength" no matter how distant (in time or space) you live from them. :)
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That same good-versus-evil story (though which side is good, which evil?) runs through other genres as well. "Cowboys and Indians" and "North versus South" (U.S. Civil war) are uniquely "American" themes yet they appear to be of great interest to folks from other places, too. There are many interconnections between these genres. For example, the stories of Cowboys and Knights have many similarities - there was even one old western TV show here in the states called "Have Gun, Will Travel." The main character was a hired gun who only killed bad guys. His name was Paladin (an ancient French knight) and his business card featured a picture of a chess knight. His theme song, in part, went: "'have gun, will travel' reads the card of the man, a knight without armor in a savage land."
There's a movie by Akira Kurosawa, The Seven Samurai, which was "translated" into Western genre, in Magnificent Seven, back in the '60s. I never watched the Japanese one, which is even b&w. (My dad did ... But the version we have in dvd is the Western one ;D )
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. . . if you believe jung is right we all (including children) play or act according to pre-defined types, whatever culture or place we come from.in the medievel theme you can easily mix the five basic archetypes (self, shadow, anima, animus, persona) creating heros, anti-heros, magicians, etc..
I am not very familiar with Jungian theory but what you have laid out make sense to me. Perhaps it could be said that regardless of their particular culture, all humans tend to tell the same types of stories as a way to pass on their history and as a way to teach values to their children. Your example of the similarities between Kurosawa's Ran and Shakespeare's King Lear and Gus's example of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and the American film The Magnificent Seven illustrate that beautifully. To tie this into the "Knight" topic, I think it is safe to say that there are many similarities between the Knight legend and the Samurai legend. :)
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I am not very familiar with Jungian theory but what you have laid out make sense to me. Perhaps it could be said that regardless of their particular culture, all humans tend to tell the same types of stories as a way to pass on their history and as a way to teach values to their children. Your example of the similarities between Kurosawa's Ran and Shakespeare's King Lear and Gus's example of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and the American film The Magnificent Seven illustrate that beautifully. To tie this into the "Knight" topic, I think it is safe to say that there are many similarities between the Knight legend and the Samurai legend. :)
Magnificent Seven was actually a version of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.
However, concerning samurai & knights, you've made a very interesting point, because there are some remarkable similarities, and it hasn't anything to do with versions. It has to do with development of culture. The vanishing knighthood and the end of samurai have a similar context of a historical moment that was changing. So, we have the Don Quixote, fighting against windmills as a mark that his day had ended, and he was sticking himself to an old way of thinking.
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The vanishing knighthood and the end of samurai have a similar context of a historical moment that was changing.
Excellent point, Gus! I had not thought of it that way before.
So, we have the Don Quixote, fighting against windmills as a mark that his day had ended, and he was sticking himself to an old way of thinking.
That is exactly what Mark Twain said about Don Quixote - that Cervantes had marked the end of an epoch. Twain's criticism of Sir Walter Scott (and some other authors, too) is that he resurrected that epoch by writing Ivanhoe.
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if it's sophisticated contributions you are after martin, i think we can beat playmoboard's "very good and enlightening answers". :P
Hey, that hurts. :-[ I tried my best...must it be a competition? ::) :)
That is exactly the point I made over there.....it's all about the archetype. Knights are a version of what Joseph Campbell called the hero with a thousand faces. We recognize that hero in any culture at any age. It will never be foreign to us no matter what land the story originates from because we are human, it is an ingrained pattern. The heroic journey rings true within each of our souls since it is from the collective human consciousness that the story springs. We all long to conquer evil, to go along on the quest and bring back treasure that will enrich our world. The names and settings change but the basic premises are few and repeated throughout the world. The idea of a Knight or a Samurai or a God or Goddess or even a Lonesome Cowboy is a localized in name only. The attraction is far more Universal and far older than medieval knighthood.
I loves me some Joseph Campbell. I hope that was sophisticated enough. :P 8} ;)
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well jamie, i must confess i knew nothing about joseph campbell... :-[
is he big in u.s.a.? ???
he had a good motto - follow your bliss. :yup:
the playmoboard reference was, of course, just a joke - a joke about a joke, some would say (just kidding) - not intended to trigger any kind of competitive spirit (it would be too unfair to accept such an unworthy and weak competitor). 0)
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well jamie, i must confess i knew nothing about joseph campbell... :-[
is he big in u.s.a.? ???
he had a good motto - follow your bliss. :yup:
the playmoboard reference was, of course, just a joke - a joke about a joke, some would say (just kidding) - not intended to trigger any kind of competitive spirit (it would be too unfair to accept such an unworthy and weak competitor). 0)
No better motto than that......it leads us all to Playmobil!!! ;)
I couldn't gush more about the work of Joseph Campbell. The interviews of him by Bill Moyers are riveting. His worldview is expansive and deeply satisfying for me to learn from. He explains so much about the intertwining and universality of mythologies and religions, particularly influenced by Jung.
I guess you could consider him "big" in the sense that his writing was so influential on George Lucas when he was writing Star Wars.....certainly a modern Knights tale. A Jedi is as much a knight as those is shining armor. :lol: Chivalrous warriors fighting for the good of all. Hooray! :love:
I feel like the single greatest anchor for all of humanity that ties our interest to the medieval epoch was the Arthurian Legends. It is that same story told a thousand times, wearing a distinctly European mask. This mythos gave the entire world a fascination with the image of Knights, Castles, Maidens and so forth. So that no matter if you were born in Brazil, or Canada, or India, or Russia, or what have you.....you feel that a Knight's story is your story. :yup:
woohooo!
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I feel like the single greatest anchor for all of humanity that ties our interest to the medieval epoch was the Arthurian Legends. It is that same story told a thousand times, wearing a distinctly European mask. This mythos gave the entire world a fascination with the image of Knights, Castles, Maidens and so forth. So that no matter if you were born in Brazil, or Canada, or India, or Russia, or what have you.....you feel that a Knight's story is your story. :yup:
woohooo!
I'm sorry, but knights don't fascinate me. I have never looked at knights or King Arthur the same after watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" years ago. If I were to ever start collecting knights, I would want to customize them to recreate scenes from the movie: "You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!" :hehe:
Hmmm...now there's an idea. Has anyone already done that? ???
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I'm sorry, but knights don't fascinate me. I have never looked at knights or King Arthur the same after watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" years ago. If I were to ever start collecting knights, I would want to customize them to recreate scenes from the movie: "You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!" :hehe:
Hmmm...now there's an idea. Has anyone already done that? ???
LOL I haven't seen it done, but that is an AWESOME idea.
There is a LEGO version of the Spamalot song on Youtube. I haven't got the know-how to do Playmobil videos, but that might be a good starting place.
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I'm sorry, but knights don't fascinate me. I have never looked at knights or King Arthur the same after watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" years ago. If I were to ever start collecting knights, I would want to customize them to recreate scenes from the movie: "You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!" :hehe:
Hmmm...now there's an idea. Has anyone already done that? ???
I have seen some Playmobil customs of the knights from the movie, will see if I have some pics. That movie was so out there it didn't really register as a 'knight' movie anymore than 'Blazing Saddles' registered as a western (love both movies).
I am also a great fan of Joseph Campbell.
Gepetto
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:yup: well jamie, we just have to convince playmobil's design department to make some cut-in-half coconuts instead of horses.
::) with the recent roman and egyptian themes maybe it will be also easier to reproduce "the life of brian".
:lol: i still prefer the "flying circus" series to their movies though.
:) an example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6uLfermPU
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:yup: well jamie, we just have to convince playmobil's design department to make some cut-in-half coconuts instead of horses.
The cut-in-half coconuts would have to have skinny middles so the Klickies can hold onto them...Playmobil already has enough farm animals including a cow to throw over the castle walls...Oh! The Roman battle tower can be converted into the Trojan Rabbit!...And there's a suspension bridge add on that can be used for the bridge in that scene where you have to answer the three questions.
This can work!
But I'm taking this thread on a silly tangent. Sorry, Martin. :-[
Okay...we now bring you back to Jung, Kurosawa, Cervantes, and Campbell...
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If I remember correctly they have been done by Playmolitho (http://playmolitho.de/) (Heydi on Playmoboard) and there exists several films on youtube, e.g. here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HfoAah8Q8I).
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If I remember correctly they have been done by Playmolitho (http://playmolitho.de/) (Heydi on Playmoboard) and there exists several films on youtube, e.g. here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HfoAah8Q8I).
:lol:
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Interesting subject! :)
I grew up in Australia, a country which was not colonised by the British until the late 18th C. As such, it has very few buildings which date back past the Victorian era. Those that do remain are mostly in ruins now but are being carefully looked after by national heritage organisations.
When I was living in Australia, Europe always appealed to me more as a possible holiday destination than the US, simply because of the wealth and depth of history its countries offered. I guess the notion of castles and knights appealed more to my romantic side, even though in reality those times were brutal.
After living in Scotland for a while and visiting countless castles over the years, I got some of the fascination out of my system. ;)
I suppose that American children and Australian children would have quite a similar outlook because they both come from nations which are "young" by comparison with countries in Europe.