PlaymoFriends

General => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: Gustavo on June 01, 2008, 22:15:50

Title: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 01, 2008, 22:15:50
Hello, Playmofriends!

I had never seen these sets (in attachment). They can't be found in Collectobil.

In Brasil, we didn't have a complete medieval collection, back in the early 80s, but only some knights and archers, from sets 3261 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3261.jpg) and 3263 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3263x.jpg), and correspondent single klickys ... We never had any royal attendants (3410 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3410.jpg)) or city defence (3409 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3409.jpg)), but I've always knew of them through wandering dioramas that went around the world, and playmo' lovers (like my cousin and I) would dream a lot about them! :love:

Some people lament that the 1900 collection has been discontinued but, to me, this classical Playmobil theme is the one I wished most to come back, exactly as they were, and, maybe, new editions as well.

I'm partially glad that through the Bunnies collection, some of the objects caracteristic of the early medieval collection came back (such as the lute and medieval violin and the backpack), but I still miss a lot of them, and there are some of them that don't seem to have any means of coming back, such as the old king's throne (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3331x.jpg), the old medieval table (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3405.jpg) and the countess chest (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3376.jpg).
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 01, 2008, 22:50:09
Hi Gus

The countess's chest is available through the System X castle 3268.  It is also available (in blue) through the modern family kid's room.
http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showpart.pl?partnum=30-67-8370

The old king's throne is available through the Knight's Advent set.
http://playmodb.org/backs/4153_back.jpg

The water bucket yoke (let's a person carry two buckets over the shoulder) is a discontinued item I'd like to see back!
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 01, 2008, 22:57:42
As for the old medieval table, the table that came with Castle 3666 is superior (an authentic looking trestle table of the 14th century).  But, yeah, it's discontinued, too, replaced by the smaller table that comes with magic castle kitchen and bunnies.

http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showpart.pl?partnum=30-60-0130

During what we'd call the medieval era of France and England, benches and trestle tables were the norm, rather than tables and chairs.  A trestle table is something as simple as boards laid over a sawhorse or a reasonable easy to disassemble table as 30-60-0130.

The reason:
The medieval dinner halls were cleared after dinner to make room for other business.  The tables were removed and stored. 

If you want to be really authentic, trim a white cloth and lay it over the tables for tablecloth.  Medievals didn't eat over bare tables!
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 01, 2008, 23:35:19


I thought the table was replaced too, but then I found out that that bunnies table was with the first count, 3375 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3375.jpg).

(I look at him, and my mind thinks "with count Bogro" ... But then, I remember that I have another name for that count ... :lol: )



The reason:
The medieval dinner halls were cleared after dinner to make room for other business.  The tables were removed and stored. 

If you want to be really authentic, trim a white cloth and lay it over the tables for tablecloth.  Medievals didn't eat over bare tables!

This has got to be great to do!!! I'll get there, but not yet. Plenty of things to buy before.


It's good to know that the chest isn't discontinued ... I intend to buy that castle, but it'll have to wait a bit as well. (Timbered houses have to come first ...)


Gus
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 02, 2008, 00:15:19
The chest is there, all right, but it seems that it's painted ...

No big problem, it's better than the blue version of the children bedroom ("Dollhouse" at Collectobil, 5328), which isn't very proper to use with the medieval theme :no: ...

The castle brings the viking throne as well (Vikings, 3154), also painted. Do you like that, with the King's Castle, master Tim?

What about the old chair? I've seen it in one of the more recent medieval sets (3274 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3274.jpg), already discontinued, though ...), in different colour. (Old one is light brown, and new one is black.) I think it isn't part of any recent sets :'( It's a great chair, the best, for medieval theme, 'dare say.

G.
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Justindo on June 02, 2008, 00:29:38
The chest is currently available and it's all brown, as the blue on it are simply optional stickers.  (I received a half dozen of them from DS a few months ago.)

The currently available table, bench, and stool are okay, although I too prefer the older more substantial table and bench.  I'm sure they'll reappear at some time.

I too wish the medieval chair was available in dark brown as it would complete the table arrangement nicely and their really should only be one or two thrones at the banquet tables.  The medieval chair would be great for important people and the benches for the less important ones.
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 02, 2008, 00:41:23
I too wish the medieval chair was available in dark brown as it would complete the table arrangement nicely and their really should only be one or two thrones at the banquet tables.  The medieval chair would be great for important people and the benches for the less important ones.

Hi Justin

This is correct.  You've probably already done the research, but for those who may not know:

In England and France, table layouts for feasts tended to take a two-legged T-shape.

The T cap was the master of the estate's table.  This table was often permanent, more elaborate than a trestle table.  Here the master and his wife, along with privileged guests sat, often in chairs.  Along the legs of the T, people tended to sit on benches, with the highest ranking sitting closest to the high table.

Edward III (or one of those Edwards) recreated a round table for his knights of the garter in imitation of King Arthur.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2542731059_e02aaf2925_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2542731179_4899707384_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Justindo on June 02, 2008, 03:39:59
Tim, that's an excellent re-creation!
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: CountBogro on June 03, 2008, 21:13:41

(I look at him, and my mind thinks "with count Bogro" ... But then, I remember that I have another name for that count ... :lol: )

Actually, my avatar is based on that count. It used to be my favourite figure. Glad you noticed it  ;)

Bogro
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Martin Milner on June 04, 2008, 11:50:51
Actually, my avatar is based on that count. It used to be my favourite figure. Glad you noticed it  ;)

Bogro

Aha, that's why I never made the connection between your avatar and name!

What you call a count is what in English we call a scribe.

Count is a noble rank, like Duke, Baron, Earl Viscount and Marquis, except we didn't have Counts in England, but they occurred in many other European countries.

A Scribe was a servant who could read and write, and do sums. He would help keep his lord's accounts and records straight, and I guess attend important meetings to keep the minutes, and draw up contracts and documents.

Thus a scribe would often be seen with pen, ink and paper.


Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Richard on June 04, 2008, 13:48:01



Aha, that's why I never made the connection between your avatar and name!

What you call a count is what in English we call a scribe.



Aha, so Bogro's "Count" might be what we would today call an aCOUNTant ... ???

Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 07, 2008, 00:47:49
What you call a count is what in English we call a scribe.

Count is a noble rank, like Duke, Baron, Earl Viscount and Marquis, except we didn't have Counts in England, but they occurred in many other European countries.

Hey Martin, when you consider the count's clothing is 15th century-ish, it's not improbable that he is a literate fellow writing his own pulp fiction tale.  By the 1300s, medieval France had a robust pulp fiction market, with a lot of idle literati penning their fancies.

For that reason, I haven't assumed him to be a scribe.

-Tim
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: CountBogro on June 07, 2008, 13:27:28
Aha, that's why I never made the connection between your avatar and name!

What you call a count is what in English we call a scribe.

Count is a noble rank, like Duke, Baron, Earl Viscount and Marquis, except we didn't have Counts in England, but they occurred in many other European countries.

A Scribe was a servant who could read and write, and do sums. He would help keep his lord's accounts and records straight, and I guess attend important meetings to keep the minutes, and draw up contracts and documents.

Thus a scribe would often be seen with pen, ink and paper.

I'm afraid that this bloke in green isn't a scribe. It's German name is "Graf mit tisch" - and "Graf" is very definitly a noble rank. He therefore isn't a scribe.
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Richard on June 07, 2008, 15:31:11



I'm afraid that this bloke in green isn't a scribe. It's German name is "Graf mit tisch" - and "Graf" is very definitly a noble rank. He therefore isn't a scribe.



Hmmm ... seems like our acCOUNTant may actually be the CFO (Chief Financial Officer) or perhaps the King's Treasurer ...  :klickywink:


Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: CountBogro on June 08, 2008, 21:54:53


Hmmm ... seems like our acCOUNTant may actually be the CFO (Chief Financial Officer) or perhaps the King's Treasurer ...  :klickywink:




In that case, I am very much afraid that the treasury is empty  ;D
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Richard on June 08, 2008, 22:09:23



In that case, I am very much afraid that the treasury is empty
  ;D



Aha ... then it must be time to go "borrow" some gold from a neighboring kingdom ... ;D


(http://www.gardenwargaming.com/armies/medieval/images/Army.jpg)

from Ken Callebut


Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 15, 2008, 23:56:35
Hello, Playmofriends!

Although this maiden looks like a princess,

(http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3336x.jpg)
picture from Collectobil.com (http://www.collectobil.com/)

in Collectobil she's listed as "Countess" ...

Does anyone know why? 8}

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 16, 2008, 01:57:07
Hello, Playmofriends!

Although this maiden looks like a princess,

(http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3336x.jpg)
picture from Collectobil.com (http://www.collectobil.com/)

in Collectobil she's listed as "Countess" ...

Does anyone know why? 8}

G.
:blackhair:

Countess is an apt a term as any.  The style of hat she wears was fashionable during the mid-1300s in England and France and is not indicative of princesses specificly, but of the upper class.

She could just as accurately be the wife of a knight or court minister as the daughter of a monarch.
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Richard on June 16, 2008, 02:14:01


Hello, Gus ...



Although this maiden looks like a princess,

in Collectobil she's listed as "Countess" ...

Does anyone know why?
8}



The "Countess" (or, lady in waiting) is wearing a tall hat called a henin. This was typical for a lady of a royal house. However, a Playmobil princess would have been wearing a smaller crown (or tiara) similar to the one the Queen in set 3263A is wearing. As you can see in this set, there are two ladies in waiting with the Queen ...

There is also the possibility that the "Queen" in set 3262A might actually be a "Princess" from a very weathy kingdom that can afford a "large" crown for a princess ...  :klickywink:

All the best,
Richard

see attachment
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 16, 2008, 05:26:00

The "Countess" (or, lady in waiting) is wearing a tall hat called a henin. This was typical for a lady of a royal house. However, a Playmobil princess would have been wearing a smaller crown (or tiara) similar to the one the Queen in set 3263A is wearing. As you can see in this set, there are two ladies in waiting with the Queen ...


Hi Richard may I petition what your source hails from?

Specificly: what do you mean by "typical for a lady of a royal house"?

My sourcebook on medieval fashion mentions this as a 14th century fashion among the upperclass rather than a raiment worn solely by daughters of the reigning family.

I am under the impression there wasn't a "uniform" for royalty--the royal family just wore better and more expensive.  French and English "Princesses" could be fashion trendsetters, but didn't have a set of clothing that marked them separately from other upper class women.

-Tim
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Richard on June 16, 2008, 21:03:55


Hello, Timmy ...



Hi Richard may I petition what your source hails from?

Specificly: what do you mean by "typical for a lady of a royal house"?



Perhaps my use of the word "royal" has caused some unnecessary confusion.

As I'm sure that you are well aware, feudalism can be just casually "lumped' into four classes. Kings, Lords and Ladies, Knights and Serfs.

The top three classes were part of the "royal house or manor" as they gave homage and fealty to the monarch. (The Clergy also somehow got in there.)

So, the "upper class" got to "hang out" around the castle (the royal house or manor) while the "lowly" serfs usually did their "hanging" outside the castle.

So, to sum it all up ... there probably weren't any serfettes running around with henins on their heads ...  :klickywink:

And, one last thing, Timmy ... What's all this formal baloney about "petitioning my sources" ... Where I pull most of my information from is a place that I know that you wouldn't want to visit ... :lol:

All the best,
Richard


Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 16, 2008, 23:53:41

And, one last thing, Timmy ... What's all this formal baloney about "petitioning my sources" ... Where I pull most of my information from is a place that I know that you wouldn't want to visit ... :lol:



Hi Richard

Heh, I was trying to "circumlocute"--my original wording was too direct...  looks like the "circum" took the long route into the countryside.

As I'm sure that you are well aware, feudalism can be just casually "lumped' into four classes. Kings, Lords and Ladies, Knights and Serfs.

I was researching medieval England and France pretty heavily in 2007.  I agree with your casual summary, but I'd be tempted to tighten it further to 1) land holder 2) military labor 3) manual labor ("lord, knight, serf").

I argue this because in the early years of English feudal society, the king didn't have absolute central control over England, but had to co-exist with a few extremely powerful earls in northern england. 

Due to this, the feudal society of that time wasn't a perfect pyramid with a king at the top.

I'm splitting hairs here, but am trying to shake-up Gus's idea of medieval Europe, which may be an image of clearly marked royalty, nobility, knight, and peasant.

Another example:
The Sire de Coucy was an independent lord living in northern France who paid homage to the French and English king at his choosing and was heavily courted by both kings for his immense wealth.

He married King Edward's daughter, but avoided government posts (he declined to be marshal of France, preferring his independence). 

Regarding peasants in henins:

England passed a series of sumptuary laws in the late 1300s to restrain wealthy peasants from dressing in the fashions of the nobility (those curly-toed shoes were part of the problem). 

We tend to be presented an image of English and French peasants as uniformly downtrodden, but in actuality, western Europe at the time of the Black Death had a prosperous middle class of urban merchants and rural land holders (land holders who had bought up their neighbors' lands and were local big-shots, but were not nobility or knights).

-Tim
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 17, 2008, 02:06:58

I argue this because in the early years of English feudal society, the king didn't have absolute central control over England, but had to co-exist with a few extremely powerful earls in northern england. 

...

Regarding peasants in henins:

England passed a series of sumptuary laws in the late 1300s to restrain wealthy peasants from dressing in the fashions of the nobility (those curly-toed shoes were part of the problem). 

We tend to be presented an image of English and French peasants as uniformly downtrodden, but in actuality, western Europe at the time of the Black Death had a prosperous middle class of urban merchants and rural land holders (land holders who had bought up their neighbors' lands and were local big-shots, but were not nobility or knights).

-Tim



The girl (3336) may look like a princess ... (I think she does, and I think I'll always think, because she was a princess in my childhood ;D ) but, I have to say, this comes from iconography. However, many (and very many) of the iconography we inherited is from a romantic XIXth century literature, that is somewhat little accurate in its reproduction of some medieval "realities" (...), e.g., Arthurian legend is portrayed many times in a XIVth XVth century fashion, although the better place (in time & fashion) would be an Britain abandoned by Rome, in the VIth century -- as some literature of the XXth century have been proposing (...).

It makes me think the recent brief dialogue between master Rich Count Bogro, for a very similar phenomenon: in English (?), the count (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3375.jpg) had been known as a scribe (...).

It is interesting (to me) to search about these things: in German, the name of the 3336 girl is BurgfrÀulein, that we might translate as court maiden (translation isn't an exact science (...)). The count (3375) is called Graf, which is literally count.

I wander where Bart de Smet picked up these titles for them ... ::) 'Cause, if I could give my two pennies :2c: for a change, I'd love to see my princess intitled as princess, as I think proper for her! :yup:

Of course, it isn't that accurate, so that I can make her princess no matter that her official name is countess. I imagine the 3336 girl on the top of a tower, awaiting for a knight ... It's a child thing in itself, and no matter how deep you two go into the historical details, it's a silly question of a 30 year-old boy who's been again fascinated with the 3336 princess, and dreaming about making stories pop out of books! (And they pop out of the internet wonderfully!: they have been popping out, the last three months! they're even beginning to arrive in the Carioca toy stores, now! 8} ...)

 :lol:

 :) Even so, it's great joy to see your comments on the matter :yup:

And, seriously, maybe then, if a single klicky item was to be in the market as princess, perhaps she would be more like the girl of 3665 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3665.jpg)?

I miss the hat of 3336 ... And I've never put hands on the "new" version (already old, too ...), in 3679 (King's Court, at Knights, Collectobil ... I can't link it right now, it seems I've reached the limit, and Collectobil began to block me).


G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Timotheos on June 17, 2008, 02:42:31

I wander where Bart de Smet picked up these titles for them ... ::) 'Cause, if I could give my two pennies :2c: for a change, I'd love to see my princess intitled as princess, as I think proper for her! :yup:


I favor "burgfraulein" because this is an example of how old PM would push the boundaries of stereotypes.  Yes, people associate the figure with a princess because her medieval hat matches illustrations from picture books we had as children. 

Yet, had PM resorted to those comfortable, unchallenging stereotypes, this thread would not have happened!

A lot of us historical customizers pursue Playmobil (and the research we invest into it) to expand our awareness of historical details.

Ergo, "court maiden" is more interesting for the questions it asks, than is YAP (yet another princess).

And, naturally, nowadays Playmobil pumps out more princesses than one can count.  Every medieval woman they produce now is a princess.



 
Title: Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
Post by: Gustavo on June 18, 2008, 00:19:12
I favor "burgfraulein" because this is an example of how old PM would push the boundaries of stereotypes.

I agree.

This is very interesting, especially because theoretically, it'd be more easy to make more accurate detail nowadays, with all the paintings and accessories ... Those klickys back there were two-colour klickys!!! (And they have more spirit than many that came after -- not all, but many ...)


Ergo, "court maiden" is more interesting for the questions it asks, than is YAP (yet another princess).

And, naturally, nowadays Playmobil pumps out more princesses than one can count.  Every medieval woman they produce now is a princess.

Disagree.

Since when exactly? ... It's true that I haven't seen many women in the medieval sets recently, but the last ones I remember weren't all of them princesses ...

(3891 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3891.jpg), 3632 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3632.jpg), 3627 (http://www.collectobil.com/images/items/3627.jpg) ... Although neither of these can be refered as recent anymore :( ...)

Fact is that there's been too little women in medieval collections, and this is, I believe, due to lack of civilian medieval items.

G.