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General => News => Topic started by: Gustavo on May 22, 2008, 07:25:43

Title: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 22, 2008, 07:25:43: Quote from: CountBogro on May 21, 2008, 06:33:43
why "failed ..." ?

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 21, 2008, 07:05:30
Indeed why not aspiring?

If you were an artist, Count Bogro, maybe either you ... or us, should know it ...
(I mean no offense ... I'm just trying to put in words, somehow, something I had thought.)

In what art are we failing or aspiring to?

On the other hand, some are very successful! (Take a look at Justforklicks, and Jochen's pictures ... Among others! -- & not to mention others!)

I only have one ... sketch of a story, of a book I'd like, yet, to write (fully). (I have written a part of it. Which is complete in itself, but needs other parts so that I can consider it a whole book ...) My art is writing. Playmobil have been inspiration, for a long time. I am not an artist of making money of my art, though. If I come to be considered as an artist some day, I think I'll probably be dead ... It's me. My profession isn't art. I'm in other things. I could be happier, maybe ... But I don't like to make my of art a job. Again, it's me.

I've been thinking about art and Playmobil. The commentary that Tim brought was intriguing to me. Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?

Does someone who don't care about Playmobil appreciate "Night of the Reaper" as I appreciate it?

Da Vinci was an artist, I think, for profession.
So was Picasso.
So was Van Gogh ... :hmm:

G.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Sylvia on May 22, 2008, 10:37:31: I've split this from the Playmobil Pirates for Nintendo DS (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=2240.0) topic because I think it's a fascinating subject which deserves a separate discussion. :)

Some related links to start things off:

Yann Delacour interview (http://www.semioticstreet.com/delacour.html)

Ralf Gemein's paintings (http://www.neuss-kultur.de/content/92.jsp)

Richard Unglik's book (http://www.claudia-schott.de/RichardUnglik/richardunglik.html)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 22, 2008, 13:56:48: Quote from: Gustavo on May 22, 2008, 07:25:43
Can someone do art with Playmobil?

What is art?

Does someone who don't care about Playmobil appreciate "Night of the Reaper" as I appreciate it?

For me, art is the use of skill to create something. The product may be highly valuable, or of no value at all, but it should move the viewer/listener (or taster, or feeler!) in a positive emotional way, possibly make them think differently about things, even if only temporarily, and possibly make them want to create something themselves.

Playmobil can certainly be used in artistic ways, as the hundreds of video clips and photographs on the internet show.

Piling a load of old rubbish on a table is NOT art, as there was no skill involved.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Rasputin on May 22, 2008, 14:26:21: martin just curious why art has to be " a positive emotional way " ?

Also if my 2 year old piles the toys on a table it took him a lot of skill to get them there .

I have a feeling ART is in the eye of the beholder and trying to get a generic explanation for it is only going to get a wide range of opinions .

Or you can just boil it down to , art is expression through creation .
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 22, 2008, 15:46:51: I don't think it takes skill to pile toys on a table, just a lot of effort - unless you consider the use of fine muscle controls that 99% of the human population have as a skill.

Playing the violin requires skill. Dancing a tango requires skill. Writing a book requires skill.

I like your definition better though - expression through creation is very good.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 22, 2008, 16:49:36: Sometimes we seem to take some things for granted, Martin ... :)

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 22, 2008, 15:46:51

I don't think it takes skill to pile toys on a table ...

Try this same "task" with chop sticks to experience some of the frustration a child feels because they have not yet developed the "skills" that we take for granted ... ;)

All the best,
Richard
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 22, 2008, 17:03:52: Thanks, Rasputin ...

Quote from: Rasputin on May 22, 2008, 14:26:21

... art is expression through creation .

How we receive art is a "personal" thing (IE: "One man's (or woman's) rubbish is another person's treasure.")

A "weed" is an excellent example of a "creative expression" ...
How can anyone be so arrogant to negatively label such a magnificent creative expression ... a "weed" ... ???

Yet, most of us do just that almost everyday ... ;)

If an "artist" can impact the senses, the emotions, the spirit or the thoughts of another, then they have had a moment of success. And, for that moment, the "artist" has been able to successfully express him or herself in a creative way.

My two cents :2c: worth ... ;D

All the best,
Richard
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Jimbo on May 22, 2008, 21:26:56: Well said, Noble Richard, ;)

Jimbo
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 00:18:10: Quote from: Sylvia on May 22, 2008, 10:37:31
I've split this from the Playmobil Pirates for Nintendo DS topic because I think it's a fascinating subject which deserves a separate discussion. :)

This was a great idea! :)

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 22, 2008, 15:46:51

I like your definition better though - expression through creation is very good.

There's also the communication part. Expression & creation is on one side ... Understanding, and answering is on the other side. Objects of art seem to carry something within it. And it produces admiration, and awe in those who come by it. Some kind of desire to answer, or maybe to make of it something honoured, something known ...
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 00:58:35: Art traditionally is craftsmanship or a honed ability. Special intuition or instinct on the part of the artist can lift his/her art above its peers.

But, art as a sort of mysticism I think is rubbish.

That nonsense is what has condoned the proliferation of salesmen with a gimmick, or hacks who have no skill, just a lot of attitude.

So, in light of the traditional definition, customizing is an art. Painting, molding, and re-arranging parts is a skill that improves with experience, and those with a special eye for innovations rise above the crowd. Like Cheng and MacGayver. They have a real skill that they picked up from practice and their unique insights.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 01:48:17: Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 00:58:35
Art traditionally is craftsmanship or a honed ability. Special intuition or instinct on the part of the artist can lift his/her art above its peers.

In the latin meaning, you're right ... Ars is the word for craft, and that's all!

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 00:58:35

But, art as a sort of mysticism I think is rubbish.

That nonsense is what has condoned the proliferation of salesmen with a gimmick, or hacks who have no skill, just a lot of attitude.

Right ... Even so, would I like to have a Da Vinci's picture on my walls, in the dining room? ... (Maybe not the Mona Lisa ...) What makes a Da Vinci a piece of art? Is it? My judgement on it makes any difference?

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 00:58:35

So, in light of the traditional definition, customizing is an art. Painting, molding, and re-arranging parts is a skill that improves with experience, and those with a special eye for innovations rise above the crowd. Like Cheng and MacGayver. They have a real skill that they picked up from practice and their unique insights.

Customizing is art as craft, I think. Therefore, customizing is more craft than art, is it? (Maybe not, but I'm making experiments here ...)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 02:23:37: I'd LOVE to have THIS:

(http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/album/albums/userpics/10422/normal_supper.jpg)

in my dining room!

G. :blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:41:04: Quote from: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 01:48:17
Right ... Even so, would I like to have a Da Vinci's picture on my walls, in the dining room? ... (Maybe not the Mona Lisa ...) What makes a Da Vinci a piece of art? Is it? My judgement on it makes any difference?

Because DaVinci practiced a lot and got real good at what he did. He exhibited insights and mastery of his technique that lesser members of his trade couldn't match or hadn't thought of. Even if somebody doesn't personally care for the Mona Lisa, they'd be stretching things to say the Mona Lisa is subjective rot that any clown with a paint brush could have done.

Quote from: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 01:48:17
Customizing is art as craft, I think. Therefore, customizing is more craft than art, is it? (Maybe not, but I'm making experiments here ...)

There isn't a difference between craft and art. You're now looking for mysticism. RE: "Art is supposed to move me, bring me closer to god, find myself. Craft is something you sell in the tourist quarter."

A person who is really good at making those stupid wooden indian heads that sell at American craft fairs is an artist. He's just not extraordinary. His fares don't stimulate you excessively.

Art is a craft, a trade, or a discipline. Great art is a work with which the mastery of technique and the creator's insight for design evokes a powerful response from the observer.

I think pretension is the only outcome of splitting hairs and looking for "deep meaning" in the definition of art. Many artists, like Andy Warhol, produce a steady flow of works that sell either because their technique appeals, their sales pitch appeals, or the artist's personal charisma inspires people to buy the stuff (* that may be one reason "classics" must have a few years under their belt--can the work stand on its own once the charismatic producer is no longer around to work his social magic?)

Modern notions of art, couched in mysticism, charisma, and persuasion, flatter the vanity of the small group of people that produces and consumes such work.

In a nutshell, they say:
"It's not art unless my circle did it or bought it."

A lot of successful artists today play head games with a gullible crowd that wants to be friends with an artist and are willing to eat up any pretentious, self-exalting "meta-narratives" that the artist and his/her gang of friends can dream up....

Yet, that's not to say that even the most perplexing modern art can't show technical expertise. It's those works with more than just a sales pitch behind them that will probably endure.

-Tim
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:54:18: Quote from: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 01:48:17
Right ... Even so, would I like to have a Da Vinci's picture on my walls, in the dining room? ... (Maybe not the Mona Lisa ...) What makes a Da Vinci a piece of art? Is it? My judgement on it makes any difference?

I think another mistake made in this sort of a debate is that we, as laymen, are judging specialist trades. Painting, writing, etc. are professions with their own techniques and challenges. A non-painter isn't going to necessarily appreciate that Painter X used an obscure brush stroke that is very difficult to execute properly, but Painter X used it like a master. This is a detail that impresses specialists of that trade, but not an inexperienced layman.

The problem is that laymen compose the bulk of the potential consumers, and to succeed you must satisfy their tastes.

In my writer's circle, we valued a lot of stuff, which we knew was difficult to accomplish, but which didn't necessarily appeal to a reader at all. And, we writers could judge something as a technical masterwork that a lay-reader wouldn't like at all.

A lot of the "quest for mysticism" I think is the struggle of highly specialized trades to win appeal among non-expert consumers.

That's where the hoodwinking comes in. How to convince Joe Sixpack that Painter X's obscure master-stroke ought to be relevant to Joe's daily life enough that Joe will pay money for it.

Edit:
This is where are own experiences, say, in having classics thrust on us in high school literature class come to play. The literature professor, who has studied the craft of writing deeply, must try to convince a non-specialist audience that a specialist work is relevant to their interests.

Some people like it. Some people don't. If your evaluation of art is simply based on emotional response, then yes, all art is subjective.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 23, 2008, 03:14:13: Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:41:04

A lot of successful artists today play head games with a gullible crowd that wants to be friends with an artist and are willing to eat up any pretentious, self-exalting "meta-narratives" that the artist and his/her gang of friends can dream up....

Maybe so ... However, I can say that I think I don't know most of these. And that most of these, maybe, will be completely forgotten in the future.

If you have many groups of few people who wish to rise one or another of their most creative friends whom they consider an artist, this won't make of their friend an artist, if his art doesn't last ... And in this I'm talking about art, not craft.

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:41:04

There isn't a difference between craft and art. You're now looking for mysticism. RE: "Art is supposed to move me, bring me closer to god, find myself. Craft is something you sell in the tourist quarter."

...

Art is a craft, a trade, or a discipline. Great art is a work with which the mastery of technique and the creator's insight for design evokes a powerful response from the observer.

I think there is difference between art and craft, all right. And I'm not a "mystical" or religious person.

Da Vinci was an artist AND a craftsman. He thought about making things to be used, he was an architect (appearently, not the best of them, in his time ...), and a painter. I think he succeded more as a painter, and observer of nature around him, and how to portray it. (He had notions that made him imagine some odd things for his time, but not enough technique in science to actually try them ... His idea of a helicopter makes sense, but wouldn't work out in the shape he draw it.) As an architect, he came out to be the best painter ever! ... ;D

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:41:04

Yet, that's not to say that even the most perplexing modern art can't show technical expertise. It's those works with more than just a sales pitch behind them that will probably endure.

-Tim

Some of the thoughts I had about this subject came out because of the thought that "Playmobil draws the failed artists" ...

What's a successful artist?

I don't know if we have many failed artists here ... I'm reasonably sure there's a lot of people here who find in Playmobil many things that artists too like to pay attention at. The fact that most of us here are no artists doesn't mean that most of us here are in failure. To be an artist isn't every (sensible to the beauty of humanity) man's target, is it? If it is, I think it should not. What I mean is that all the people I find here are very happy in general!: we have the best hobby & plaything ever! It's even better than art! ::) :P

G.
:)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 23, 2008, 04:34:18: Is Hans Beck an artist?

see attachment ("borowed" from Tricorne Jack (http://www.tricornejock.com/))
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 23, 2008, 05:37:47: Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 02:41:04
Because DaVinci practiced a lot and got real good at what he did. He exhibited insights and mastery of his technique that lesser members of his trade couldn't match or hadn't thought of. Even if somebody doesn't personally care for the Mona Lisa, they'd be stretching things to say the Mona Lisa is subjective rot that any clown with a paint brush could have done.

Agreed, but the people who spend their lives re-painting the Mona Lisa - to me that's just good craftsmanship. They've done nothing new or original.

Hans Beck was an artist I think (though he probably considered himself a designer) becaue he created something new - and it's stood the test of time so we can be confident we weren't just hoodwinked!

When I'm playing a tune on my fiddle, I may display great craftsmanship, but if I'm just re-playing a piece someone else wrote it's just craft. If I compose a new tune nobody else ever heard, then I'm verging on art. If that tune catches on and is still being played 50-100 years later, then I was successful.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: CountBogro on May 23, 2008, 21:15:33: I guess the line between craftmanship and artist is rather blurred. I think that even in the Eyes of the Da Vinci himself; most of his drawing were just studies. Attempts to put down what he saw. People now a days would use a camera. I rather go that a artist tries to express himself through whatever it is he makes or creates. How well he succeeds in that makes someone a great or lesser artist.

I believe that most of these "professions" are more in the mind as to the works someone creates. Someone can be a poet without ever writing a word. It is in the way they are in the world or the way they work with words. A Philosopher is born that way. He'll thinks about the world and it's content and tries to work it out.
How successfull someone is, merely is a measure of how well someone is. But on the first place someone is a artist/philosopher/ poet / ...

But that's just my own 0.02 ...

Bogro
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 22:41:40: Hi Martin, Bogro,

I like both your well-thought definitions.

They avoid that mystical rubbish so many self-absorbed young artists goose-step around with. In America, a lot of "art" nowadays is either political propaganda or a navel-gazing 20-something ranting poetry that expresses his/her grievances.

====================
As for the my failed artist comment:

By "Lego draws the blunt-speaking, misfit engineers; Playmobil draws the failed artists", I was trying to be funny. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Self-abasement has the potential to be funny.
Self-congratulation has the potential to be drole.

-Tim
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 23, 2008, 23:18:59: You ARE funny, Timmy ...

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 22:41:40
... I was trying to be funny. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And, if I didn't think that you could easily laugh at yourself, I would never poke fun at you.

As you have no doubt seen, we have some exceptionally gifted members here at Playmofriends.

It seems that many don't often have a chance to express their thoughts with others who understand them. So, when the opportunity presents itself, they're quite willing to share their opinions and ideas with the other members.

Because there are a couple of us who are natural clowns, jesters and jokesters, who seldom if ever take anything seriously, it can be somewhat frustrating for those members who want to have a learned discussion ... ;)

I know that are some (including me) who are probably always in danger of getting into trouble for "yanking the chains" of others ... ;D

However ... You, my friend, seem to be a much better "dancer" than most. Which in itself is a real "ART" ... And, that, Timmy ... Makes you an ARTIST!
(Were you kinda wondering where I was going with this?) ... :lol:

All the best,
Richard (always the fool ...)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 24, 2008, 02:11:44: Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 22:41:40

... In America, a lot of "art" nowadays is either political propaganda or a navel-gazing 20-something ranting poetry that expresses his/her grievances.

Does this happen in the part of America you are too??? 'Cause it happens here a lot!!!

It's very awkward when a friend comes by, asks you to read his poems, and asks you what you think about them, because, most of the times, it's very common expression of feelings ... I do this a lot!, but this is definitely the part of my writings I'd not consider any kind of art! :hmm: ... It's only expression of feelings. (...)

Quote from: Timotheos on May 23, 2008, 22:41:40

As for the my failed artist comment:

By "Lego draws the blunt-speaking, misfit engineers; Playmobil draws the failed artists", I was trying to be funny. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's great to find thoughts you always had to find form ... As Richard said, there's a lot of things in common between us in here, and whenever something so fertile like this comes up, it's wonderful to chat about! ;D

I have to add, however, that, if it touches so many of us, it's because, one way or another, we have heard this before ... And, in my case, not as a joke! :-\

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 24, 2008, 02:19:25: Quote from: Sylvia on May 22, 2008, 10:37:31

Some related links to start things off:

Yann Delacour interview (http://www.semioticstreet.com/delacour.html)

...

Weird interview, the one of this Delacour guy ... :hmm: He sounds a bit like a mercenary! >:( :-\ ::)

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Knightmo on May 24, 2008, 12:41:47: Wow.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z202/WingArtyst/Pconfusd.png)

I guess I dont travel in nearly as colorful of places as you all do. I dont understand some of the stuff you all are saying. I consider myself an artist and I have a very artistic family. Success in the use of my art has not come in the form of monetary gain, but rather in what it can do for myself and others on a more signifcant level. It helps me hash out my thoughts and inspire me. More importantly though, I think success comes from bringing joy to others.

I have never come across the negative stuff mentioned(or I just dont recognize the jargon used). If I have, I guess I never for moment considered it even worthy of my ponderings. I guess there is such a thing as lousy art, selfishly motivated art, and deliberately destructive art.--We humans tend to do that sort of thing.

Just because we may not immediately--or maybe ever--recognize what we are looking at, it was born out of someones mind to tell a story, make a statement, or whatever. Art is indeed subjective. I recommend not wasting too much time and emotion on the bad stuff and spend plenty of time on appreciating the good.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z202/WingArtyst/Psmile.png)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: CountBogro on May 24, 2008, 13:53:36: But some great artists were only appreciated after their death. Both Van Gogh and Rembrandt died paupers, while after their deaths their art was sold for millions or even more.

If I saw something that I can't apprciate, I'll (try) and to walk on. Not to judge anything; but just go on to the pieces I can appreciate and enjoy those...

Bogro
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 24, 2008, 14:03:32: Quote from: Knightmo on May 24, 2008, 12:41:47

... Art is indeed subjective. I recommend not wasting too much time and emotion on the bad stuff and spend plenty of time on appreciating the good.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z202/WingArtyst/Psmile.png)

Well said, Jimmy! ... :wow:

And, Bogro ... there seems to be a certain perversity that many of us humans have ... sometimes we appear to have more appreciation for those things that we have lost, can't have, or were taken away from us. (IE: People willing to pay large sums of money for Playmobil from their youth. And, remember the Bible story of the lost drachma.) ... :klickygrin:

All the best.
Richard
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 24, 2008, 15:51:21: Quote from: Knightmo on May 24, 2008, 12:41:47
I guess I dont travel in nearly as colorful of places as you all do. I dont understand some of the stuff you all are saying. I consider myself an artist and I have a very artistic family. Success in the use of my art has not come in the form of monetary gain, but rather in what it can do for myself and others on a more signifcant level. It helps me hash out my thoughts and inspire me. More importantly though, I think success comes from bringing joy to others.

I have never come across the negative stuff mentioned ...

I guess it's got to do with a delicate matter of doing something for living oposed to a secret of living for doing something that I have to admit that I've been letting aside :-[ ... Daily rush deceives a man very easily. :hmm:

Great to talk with you all, though! :) Many opinions help to bring back good thought & sense about different subjects!

Quote from: Richard on May 23, 2008, 04:34:18

Is Hans Beck an artist?

see attachment ("borowed" from Tricorne Jack (http://www.tricornejock.com/))
Quote from: CountBogro on May 24, 2008, 13:53:36
Both Van Gogh and Rembrandt died paupers

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 23, 2008, 05:37:47
Hans Beck was an artist I think (though he probably considered himself a designer)

thoughts, thoughts :!:

Art portrays the present; present not always is easily understood
Art and the artist who produces it may have different endings, or
The artist and his art may have different endings

There's no art without craft
There is creation without craft
Craft involves creation, but not creation of something new necessarily

An artist may not be intending to make art, when he's simply doing his ... craft

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 24, 2008, 16:02:31: more thoughts

When an artist is doing craft, he isn't an artist to his own eye

Sometimes, art will be ellected by the world

Rembrandt died pauper because he bought a lot of Playmobil! 8}

:lol:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Rasputin on May 25, 2008, 01:31:54: Well if one needed to stir up a little creativity you could allways take a few shots of the " Green Fairy " (Absinthe)

That should get the ol art ball rollin :**:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 26, 2008, 23:08:43: Quote from: Gustavo on May 24, 2008, 02:19:25
Weird interview, the one of this Delacour guy ... :hmm: He sounds a bit like a mercenary! >:( :-\ ::)

G.
:blackhair:

I read the Delacour article and was amazed / impressed that Playmobil cooperates. Considering other public art projects (mentioned in "Story of a Smile") that Playmobil has been drawn into, it says something about the "iconic" look / affect of the toy. On the other hand, why Delacour needs 700 more yankees... I admire Geobra for playing along... Interesting that Delacour mentioned the dating analogy... the art of the conquest...? The double entendre of "yankee" meaning both war against slavery and a nickname for the present American international presence I guess adds "depth" to his project.

As for art definition:

It seems "modern art" (whether abstract or not) requires a raison d'etre, a "narrative" if you please (cynically: a sales spin).

When Van Gogh was painting one of his fields, did he console himself by saying it symbolized the vast fields of Africa, lush yet painted, vibrant yet flat, nourished yet starving?

It's the sales spin that creates the aura of mysticism that surrounds modern art makers. They aren't creating "things that are interesting"--nay! Such a description befits a boor. They're "devising introspections into post-modern subtextualization."

And, besides, you have to differentiate yourself in the market somewhere. Person A and Person B have both produced an "interesting" photograph. Yet, Person A gave us merely a snapshot, a jejune mish-mosh of childhood items set against an industrial background--while Person B--Oh Gods, look down!--gave us "morals, arrayed and fitted into rank and file--not 300, nay, no Thermopylaean martyrdom, but a 700 strong regiment of plastic, industrial men--post capitalist, yet pre-colonial, anti-slave, yet enslaving (look north, not south, for freedom, self-rule; General Lee is a car in the Dukes of Hazzard, a comedy). And to what god? What muse?

Oh great and wonderful Charisma!
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 27, 2008, 00:12:07: More on the subject:

The notion that art involves a degree of personal investment (which craft lacks) is a standard I see a lot.

Yet--

We have a great deal of art work that survives from classical and medieval times, and it isn't possible to discern the motives behind the artist. In truth, even today, short of what the artist says for himself, you have no way of knowing how "genuine / sincere" the work is.

Bob Dylan raised a storm a few years back by saying he'd written his songs "for the money" (ie. writing to his audience's desire instead of speaking from the heart).

And what does that mean?

Why does it matter?

It seems many people seek to buy a personal relationship with the artist--

(this may apply mainly to music and contemporary literature-- )

To feel like somebody "knows" them--

So, I guess "art" can be a sort of communications--

"Lost ships at sea seeking a light house"

Otherwise, it shouldn't matter whether a machine randomly generates images / words that its audience finds it relates to, or whether there is a bold mind fashioning X from his heart.

A professor a few years back created a computer program to communicate with people. He designed it to mostly rephrase what the person told it, somewhat like how an empathetic listener operates.

Ex:

A: "I feel bad."
Computer: "You feel bad? Why?"
"Because people don't take me seriously."
"They don't take you seriously?"
"No. They call me a flake."
"They call you a flake?"
"Yes. Because I get so emotional."
"You get so emotional?"
...
and so on.

He found that people got so involved with that random program, thinking it was trully listening, that he stopped using it on people and considered it unethical.

So the question is:

What is meaning, anyway?
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Knightmo on May 27, 2008, 01:32:15: Art is communication. A narrative is simply telling the one being communicated to what the "language" of the piece is. Pretty basic stuff, mechanically speaking. Granted what is being commuicated, once understood, is up for critique.

Personal investment or not requires an incredibly thorough understanding of each case. There are many factors that could be the reason for the creation that arent apparent. It could be investment of imagination, emotion(obvious--seen as art by and large) or something like time or money(could be either). Each considered a personal investment with equal weight.
--and these are not all of possible personal investments.

Meaning, dictionary def: "That which is signified by something else."

All the more important not to quickly label something that you genuinely want to understand.--or you never will.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 27, 2008, 02:53:35: Quote from: Timotheos on May 27, 2008, 00:12:07

More on the subject:

The notion that art involves a degree of personal investment (which craft lacks) is a standard I see a lot.

Yet--

Who better to fashion an appropriate response to Timotheos than Timotheos himself ... :klickywink:

Quote from: Timotheos on May 27, 2008, 00:12:07

"Lost ships at sea seeking a light house" ...

"... to lure them upon the rocks of destruction."

Quote from: Timotheos on May 27, 2008, 00:12:07

A professor a few years back created a computer program to communicate with people. He designed it to mostly rephrase what the person told it, somewhat like how an empathetic listener operates.

He found that people got so involved with that random program, thinking it was trully listening, that he stopped using it on people and considered it unethical.

Ah ... Rogerian software ... :lol:

Thank you for the entertaining posts, Timmy ... :klickywink:

All the best,
Richard
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 27, 2008, 03:08:43: Meaning has something to do with interaction. In a way, a painter back in the Middle Ages communicated something, and we interact with what reached us, but we cannot interact with him in person.

There is some delusions, yes, I think, in what concerns the "living artist". Is there such a thing as a living artist, is a question I make myself ... In my opinion, art isn't exactly a job ... Although there are people who are artists for profession, and I don't question this at all! If a man grew up in a family where 5 people in 10 were musicians, or painters, and he found out that he liked to do that too, and does it well, it's an artist, and there's nothing to question about it. But there is the kind of man who's trying to communicate with the world, too, like to open the eyes of everyone around. And there are the artists who will die thinking they're only designers. I don't know if Hans Beck considers himself an artist. (We should ask him! :blackhair: )

Also, many things we call art are simply some sort of craft. Painting, for example, in the day of Da Vinci had use and reason, and the painter was doing something needed to a certain purpose. I think that until photography it was like this, in what concerns painting. And there was the doing for need, and the pleasure on doing something according to the thought of the painter, in his spare time ...

(As well as the cunning of the painter. We seem to be able to realize when some sort of ambiguity was intended, even if we can't say for sure what has been the intention of the ambiguous parts. People try to read a lot of things in the work of Leonardo Da Vinci (I read him in a simple way, but I admit that people who search for ghosts will find many in Da Vinci, because he is visibly full of many hidden intentions -- which, to me, died with him, and I don't care!). On the other hand, there's art work with little and/or no ambiguity as well. Rembrandt, for example, is, in my view, very simple as painter.)

My photography isn't art, I think. But, even if it was ... enough to be considered so, I wouldn't, because there isn't a function for it ... It's mere fun. Art has reason, cause, compromise with an idea (even if the idea is the lack of ideas, or to defend that you shouldn't be compromised to any ideas). Either to decorate a church, to portrait a King, or an Earl, or his daughter, or to say that the world is wrong.

There's many things we consider art that were much like my essays ... Say, maybe, theatre. Some plays by the Roman Titus Plautus are mere entertainment. Just like my klicky stories. Maybe they'll be considered art, within a thousand years ;D

If they do, I won't know however.

Meaning is one thing, art is another. Meaning has more to do, I think, with contemporary art.

(My :2c: on it ...)

Now: "Can someone mean with Playmobil?" Certainly someone can!!! I mean groans & giggles! :hehe: Maybe someone can find deeper meanings ... Maybe I will, in the future, when I have more playmobil ... (I think that many klicky, a klicky war, may be very interesting to show some interesting things about humanity ... Only, the guys with big armies don't usually put children in the towns that are being invaded by enemy troops, and this is an interesting message ... (Not the only one, but a simple basic beginning ;) aye, Richard?)) (However, I'll never have an army with 500 soldiers ...) (I'm talking about this (http://gardenwargaming.playclicks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1114.0), & attachment.)

As for "What is meaning?" ... I already got 8} here.

& What's understanding, Tim? The matter of the "answering computer" has to do with understanding too, I think.

G.
:toot:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: kaethe on May 27, 2008, 07:21:50: that was an incredible link. i am not a soldier sort, but i love to see and read about the meticulous attention to detail in the gw posts and here in the pf discussions.
thank you all for sharing.
kaethe
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 27, 2008, 10:34:09: Quote from: Gustavo on May 27, 2008, 03:08:43

My photography isn't art, I think. But, even if it was ... enough to be considered so, I wouldn't, because there isn't a function for it ... It's mere fun. Art has reason, cause, compromise with an idea (even if the idea is the lack of ideas, or to defend that you shouldn't be compromised to any ideas). Either to decorate a church, to portrait a King, or an Earl, or his daughter, or to say that the world is wrong.

I don't think most art has any more reason to exist than to entertain. That's reason enough.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 27, 2008, 14:00:22: Quote from: Martin Milner on May 27, 2008, 10:34:09
I don't think most art has any more reason to exist than to entertain. That's reason enough.

I second this...

Somebody somewhere has a quote (only he said it "clever") that art doesn't exert anything near the impact on the world that its supporters claim it does.

Those who've appropriated art as a vehicle for changing the world are the ones plying us with so much political propaganda. Some of those characters even go so far as to assert that if there isn't a political or social subtext for a piece, then it's rot (notice that even Delacour attempts to imbue his stuff with "greater social good" to the degree that he claims to have adopted the Yankees as a positive moral statement).

Too much self-congratulation ("we're saving the world!!!!") can't be good for creativity!
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 27, 2008, 19:48:54: Quote from: kaethe on May 27, 2008, 07:21:50
that was an incredible link. i am not a soldier sort, but i love to see and read about the meticulous attention to detail in the gw posts and here in the pf discussions.
thank you all for sharing.
kaethe

Thank Richard, Kaethe :) He brought this from GW-PC in the first place. It's amazing, isn't it?

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 27, 2008, 10:34:09
I don't think most art has any more reason to exist than to entertain. That's reason enough.

I third this ... I mean, I agree.

Though, when it comes to words, and image (& propaganda), there's no way different thoughts will become message.

And there's, I think, a difference between art which is more entertaining, and art which is more intellectual. Dance, theatre, music is much more entertaining, I think, while writing (literature), and painting offer more intellectual possibilities, and, with it, all kinds of ideas. Both have to do with memory, and letting pass to the future, or to someone geographically distant, what someone (who writes, paints, or orders such services) has (or had) been living. Then, there came photography, but the painters continued to be, because we humans still draw 8} ...

Sir Elmo's stories have the intention of being like a little play (theatre) ...

There's a lot more to be read besides this, though. But the person who produces it rarely thinks about everything. As Knightmo said, understanding is for the critics ;D (And they usually understand much more than what was intended! ... :hmm: ::) )

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Knightmo on May 28, 2008, 00:03:59: There seems to be an almost defensive mindset about art. I wouldnt fault anyone for that, in and of itself. But we cant get into peoples head and make broad general statements about intention. The possibilty of an inaccurate assesment is high. Understanding of the artists intentions and interpreting more from it are clearly different things. We cant get in peoples heads, so we dont know how many people understand this and what the mix of understanding and interpretation exists within each person or group.

Propoganda, Mystism, etc... all qualify as critiques of the art. What i meant and should have said is"..up for complete critique". How can different thoughts not become a message? There are often different thoughts combined into one message. This is why a thorough understanding is important. Labeling something and walking away doesnt make one any less a critic, it just makes a person a critic who was content with the label he/she gave. Of course only that person knows if they really bothered to understand what they are critisizing. Its interesting that its said art has little more reason to exist than entertain and yet such meaningful labels are slapped on them such as Propaganda and Mystism. Those are big reasons.

An accurate assesment of ART requires a broader view of art itself which would help get out of what seems to be a funk of defensivness. IMHO.

Dissageement with the subject matter does not invalidate something as art. A creation is a creation. We can critisize Moral, technical aspect of the arts. For example, a painting that is viewed as morally depraved can be viewed negatively because its depraved. Saying "thats not art(or any less a work of art)" isnt correct. It is just as much art as a morally uplifting painting, it was just inspired by depravity. In the example of the child piling toys on a table: Just because a "pile" is mundane to most, doesnt invalidate the craft. To the child, the pile is an ordered form that he/she created either from inspiration or from experience from witnessing someone create a similar form.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 28, 2008, 02:15:48: Quote from: Knightmo on May 28, 2008, 00:03:59
Dissageement with the subject matter does not invalidate something as art. A creation is a creation. We can critisize Moral, technical aspect of the arts. For example, a painting that is viewed as morally depraved can be viewed negatively because its depraved. Saying "thats not art(or any less a work of art)" isnt correct. It is just as much art as a morally uplifting painting, it was just inspired by depravity. In the example of the child piling toys on a table: Just because a "pile" is mundane to most, doesnt invalidate the craft. To the child, the pile is an ordered form that he/she created either from inspiration or from experience from witnessing someone create a similar form.

But, as as Richard explained a few postings back, my disorganized, non-sequitor-laden blathers are a form of art, so how can you invalidate or dissect them as the above quotation appears to be doing?

You are intellectually obligated to give me the benefit of the doubt and put me on a pedestal, because you just don't know--I might be a genius.*

Every post I make is an investment of myself, my experiences, my world view--from my particular privileged vantage that only artists (like me) can understand.

I'm creating a portrait of mankind--post by post, thread by thread: mankind sifted through the filter of childhood fancy, both progression and regression, maturation and infantilism, senility and personal growth.

To Richard: how can I continue producing my art on this forum when these foot soldiers of the bourgeois capitalist Global Inc. are allowed to keep taking their rustic--nay, bucolic--cheap shots and making their petty post-agrarian pre-pubescent neo-conservative bleatings at my expense?

I demand, at the very least, that people open their minds and indulge me. I mean my art.

Yes! Indulge!

Oh! You simplistic hobbits! (I dare use the Tolkien analogy in hopes that by invoking this pre-natal pop-culture reference I may at least make some tenuous connection with the Bilbos and Frodos I now find myself fending off... unlikely!).

In closing:
Nobody has a right to question art (unless you are a certified critic or one of my mentors). You have only the right to consume, consume, or get lost!

Shoo! Scram! Vandals! Ostrogoths! Attercop!
Quote
Old Tomnoddy, all big body,
Old Tomnoddy can't spy me!
Attercop! Attercop!
Down you drop!
You'll never catch me up your tree!
=====
* Seems unlikely, but just to be safe...
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Knightmo on May 28, 2008, 03:17:22: ???

I said art isnt invalidated by subject.

I dont see any dissecting or invalidating. In fact, You just dissected and described the heck out of your own words. I did nothing like that.

If you mean what said about defensivesness, I said "seems". My perception. Observation. Different from simply concluding that something is absolutley one thing or another. Slight differences in grammer, I guess. I dont see how that invalidates anything, anyway.

Art is communication. If an artist wants to communicate something, he/she will accept questions about it, so the beholder of the art understands what is being communicated. It is not uncommon for artist to explain further about what appears to be obvious (or not obvious). Look at the custom figure posts. Sometimes they dont need explaination. Whether they do or not, it is always helpful and nice to know the thoughts and technique behind the creations. If either artist or the beholder think they are entitled to either not answer or not ask questions, thats fine and dandy. --but the communication probably wont be nearly as understood.

And Richard is right..your posts are entertaining:)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 28, 2008, 23:58:06: Quote from: Knightmo on May 28, 2008, 03:17:22
Art is communication. If an artist wants to communicate something, he/she will accept questions about it, so the beholder of the art understands what is being communicated. It is not uncommon for artist to explain further about what appears to be obvious (or not obvious).

Yeah, but communication includes "lecturing" among its subsets. Seriously, how many of these professional artists approach art as a dialog with the consumer?

And, why do we even need a dialog?

Delacour's photos are interesting--yet he adds the spin about "yankees representing positive morality" as a complete non-sequitor. There is nothing about his photos that in any way suggest this positive morality. He's what we laymen might call "talking something up."

While I understand where you are coming from, to completely remove all cynicism from a very human enterprise (promoting one's professional career; generating livilihood), separates "art" from the rest of human experience and places it on a pedestal.

Other than a person's ability to talk his way into a market, why are obliged to give "art" special consideration not reserved for other mundane interactions between people--ie. like a ranting radio show by Rush Conservative?

It is for this reason that I argue modern minds imbue "art" with a sort of mysticism it isn't entitled to.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on May 29, 2008, 04:13:13: I throw in the towel.

Maybe I understand you now, Knightmo.

We are talking about different "genres". What you're describing sounds like this:

A person puts forward an object, work, whatever and gives it a "philosophical / moral / political interpretation" (in Delacour's case, "positive morality"). The patron then "contemplates" this premise--possibly even divorced from the actual work.

But, regardless, this is clearly different from classical styles, which were based around aesthetics and visual stimulation. I mean, Van Gogh's painting of that field really was a painting of a field. He was experimenting with techniques and visual stimulation--not trying to preach something about "positive morals."
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Richard on May 29, 2008, 13:12:38: Yann Delacour obviously used his "art" to dupe Zirndorf into giving him a very large Playmobil army to play with, so that he could revisit the toys of his childhood.

His photographs are laughable. The quality of his "art" pales in comparison to the many excellent "amateur" photos posted here by the members of Playmofriends.

Hopefully, he privately laughs at himself and enjoys the humour of the farce that he continues to inflict upon his audience of fools.

The photography of someone like Ansel Adams can be legitimately compared to the truly great artists of our cultural history. Delacour, on the other hand, can legitimately claim P.T. Barnum for his cultural heritage.

A quick search of the "worldwide interweb" produced a couple of photos of Playmobil by Delacour that seem to prove that he is indeed "talent free" ... :klickywink:

All the best,
Richard

see attachments
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 29, 2008, 13:24:08: He certainly can't focus his camera correctly!

I found his website too

(http://web.mac.com/yanndelacour/iWeb/Site/recherche_files/droppedImage_8.jpg)

what a load of doo. This is exactly the sort of nonsense that I don't want to waste more eyetime on.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on May 29, 2008, 13:40:39: Quote from: Knightmo on May 28, 2008, 00:03:59
Dissageement with the subject matter does not invalidate something as art. A creation is a creation. We can criticize Moral, technical aspect of the arts. For example, a painting that is viewed as morally depraved can be viewed negatively because its depraved. Saying "thats not art (or any less a work of art)" isnt correct. It is just as much art as a morally uplifting painting, it was just inspired by depravity. In the example of the child piling toys on a table: Just because a "pile" is mundane to most, doesn't invalidate the craft. To the child, the pile is an ordered form that he/she created either from inspiration or from experience from witnessing someone create a similar form.

So by your definition, Art is Art because the person who created it says so?

Is Art defined by the "artist" or the viewer? Or by an "expert" third party, the Art critic, who can tell us all what we should think?

I agree that the subject matter is irrelevent. A painting of a rotting corpse may still be art if it is skilfully rendered, no matter that most of us won't want to look at it.

There was a guy in the papers the other week who paints with his tongue. He has normal working arms and hands, and feet, but he chooses to paint with his tongue. Does this make the final painting more or less Art than if he used brushes, or the same?
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Indianna on May 29, 2008, 14:53:51: For me the difference between art and craft is the special response that art invokes in the observer. Excellent craft is certainly to be admired for the skills employed in its creation and most art is also fine craft. Art transcends craft when it causes the observer to feel something more than admiration for the skills involved. I am unable to define what that "something" is (and it may well be different for different people) but I think we all know it when we feel it. Great art also transcends time and place and even culture and elicits that special response from a great number of people. Great art does not require an accompanying context.

Van Gogh is one of my favorite artists, but I knew nothing about him when I first saw "Starry Night" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VanGogh-starry_night_ballance1.jpg) and fell in love with it. Learning about V.G. and visiting Arles and vicinity enriched my appreciation of his work but was not required for that initial gut reaction.

About 30 years ago I saw Dürer's "Melencolia I" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D%C3%BCrer_Melancholia_I.jpg) at a museum and was instantly captivated by it, again knowing nothing about the artist or his times. Since then I have learned more about him and his other work (most of which does not appeal to me, as it is mostly religious in nature, although I am sure that it still qualifies as art. :klickygrin: ) I obtained a modern reprint of the etching and I still enjoy looking at it and thinking about it.

When I saw a photo of Jeff Koons's stainless steel "Rabbit" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rabbit_Jeff_Koons.jpg) about 20 years ago I was entranced. Since then I have become more familiar with the artist and I really don't like most of his work (and he doesn't even make this stuff himself - he comes up with the design and has a whole studio full of people who actually make it.) I finally saw the rabbit in person when it recently visited the ICA here in Boston - I LOVED it! It was more wonderful than I ever could have imagined.

Fifty years ago my father-in-law had some materials that were left over from the building of the new family home and he was inspired to put them together in an interesting way. He attached a block of one inch black tiles to a larger sheet of black formica and poured a large blob of white paint near one corner of the tile block so that the paint seeped between the tiles, creating the effect of a gigantic full moon rising behind the corner of a modern building. He framed it with some pieces of aluminum sliding-door track. It is very cool! He is not an artist but, simple as it is, I feel that this is a work of art. I compare it to Picasso's bull's head (http://bp1.blogger.com/_lOQBYMTV01s/RiG9wFWOWNI/AAAAAAAAANw/7dhBOb6LGiI/s1600-h/bull%27s+head+-+picasso+%281944%29.jpg) which he crafted from a bicycle's seat and handlebars. Both are brilliant uses of found objects. But "Moon over Miami" ain't worth a million bucks! :lol:

- Anne
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Knightmo on May 29, 2008, 20:35:38: oy.

I am just looking at the question "what is art", not "what I think is art". The latter is a fair question too, but I am approaching first question form a broader view. Its not about genre or morals. I am not dismissing anything from my standpoint. I have said this but I guess you think I am approaching it in a different way.

Art can communicate crap and do it in a crappy way.
It can be technically executed wonderfully but the image itself can be disturbing to point it is assigned no good value.
It can be a barely recognizable image that evokes good feelings or some other meaning.
Etc..
etc..

If someone takes horrible pic and adds some blathering that sounds ridiculous, I wont hesitate to call it absurd. That's a fair critique of its technique and whatever social statement its supposed to make...but, I will give a creator the benefit of the doubt that there is communication there. That, however crappy it is, it was deliberately forged to say what the creator intended. Art. Communication and expression is soooooo varied. execution and subject matter is sooooo varied. I wont presume to steal a persons voice because it doesn't speak to me for whatever reason.

Indianna has a good post.

I guess I have little more to say also.

(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z202/WingArtyst/Psmile.png)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 30, 2008, 01:02:07: i

Quote from: Martin Milner on May 29, 2008, 13:40:39
So by your definition, Art is Art because the person who created it says so?

Is Art defined by the "artist" or the viewer? Or by an "expert" third party, the Art critic, who can tell us all what we should think?

I gladly welcome back the Morris Dancer, Martin! :)

About the artist, I think that, putting in the square,
there will be:

1. person who says to be an artist and who actually is;
2. person who says to be an artist and actually isn't;
3. person who says to be something else and is an artist;
and 4. person who says to be something else, and actually isn't an artist.

#1 is a professional artist;
#3 are many designers (...); a guy like this is both a (e.g.) designer and an artist, and he is said to be so by others;
#4 is maybe me ;D (I don't have enough production to think myself as an artist (writer), and I don't persue* this, or care about)

*Well, maybe I do, I mean, I do search for getting better in what I do, but not as a profession, for very personal reasoning.

ii

Indianna brought some very interesting -- and illustrative -- examples, based on her perception of art ...

Thx, Anne! :)

iii

I was thinking about one other thing, concerning what had come up ... (I don't use to write during the week, but it isn't at all a rule ... ;D )

On message, there are some things that are somewhat obvious, for example:

Message in attached art with Playmobil by Ralf Gemein brings me one clear message: "I like Playmobil".

Message in "Night of the Reaper" (http://www.justforklicks.com/j4k/stories/reaper/part1/intro.html) brings me one clear message: "I like Playmobil & Humour"

& Message in Delacour's art brings me one message: "I like the effect of an army of USCW Playmobil figures" ... It doesn't bring me the message "I like Playmobil" (all right, I only saw one picture, I'm talking about what I saw).

Ralf Gemein clearly works the figures. Each one. And these sets he made up aren't even what he would put in a portfolio, or consider his professional art ... Maybe he considers that a hobby ... But it has the message "I like Playmobil", does anyone disagree? Maybe Gemein's presence in GW-PC is a paralel to an interview ... It's something he says apart from his artistic production, and the message his "hobby" brings is "I like Playmobil".

The message Delacour's interview brings is "I like Playmobil, as long as they pay me ... I can do what I do with any other toy, if they stop paying me ...". Come on!: this guy is a mercenary! Or he doesn't measure his words. There are fans of Playmobil, somewhere in the world! Playmobil doesn't need him! >:( :hmm: / (Which doesn't mean his art isn't art ... No matter he offends someone with his interview, which is something apart.) (P. Picasso was man very full of pride himself, and he is recognized for the work he did, and was, even during his life ... Which also characterizes an artist for profession. Someone is supposed to live of what he does.)

iv

And to finish with something that I'd like to say about my own words ... I'm sorry (I really am) about the way my speech comes up. I have a very annoyong way of speaking "in lecture mode" most of the time :-[ I hope I'll manage to change this. However, before I find out the way of doing so, I will annoy you a bit longer. / What I ask of you is that you try to pick whatever is interesting in the middle of what is said. Although it is a speech full of pride, it does bring some ideas, you know? I'll appreciate your view on the ideas I bring ... I don't know everything -- Not me.

Only Timotheus does! ;) ... Um, I hope you know I'm kidding, master Tim ::)

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on May 30, 2008, 19:42:46: Through Playmobilmania.blogspot (http://www.playmobilmania.blogspot.com/) (in Catalon ... a language between Spanish and French, in many ways ...), I got to Rafael Morgan at blogger (http://www.rafaelmorgan.com/2007/10/playmobil-office-chair.html), source of these interesting chairs, that may have to do with this thread ...

Chair

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/rafaelmorgan/portfolio/cadeira_coroa.jpg)

Idea of the chair

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/rafaelmorgan/portfolio/playmobil.jpg)

quick_G
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Indianna on May 30, 2008, 23:52:01: That chair is fabulous! Thanks for the link, Gustavo! I wonder if it was ever produced in quantity for retail sale. It actually looks comfortable, too. :brownhair:

Quote from: Gustavo on May 30, 2008, 01:02:07

iii

I was thinking about one other thing, concerning what had come up ... (I don't use to write during the week, but it isn't at all a rule ... ;D )

On message, there are some things that are somewhat obvious, for example:

Message in attached art with Playmobil by Ralf Gemein brings me one clear message: "I like Playmobil".

Message in "Night of the Reaper" (http://www.justforklicks.com/j4k/stories/reaper/part1/intro.html) brings me one clear message: "I like Playmobil & Humour"

& Message in Delacour's art brings me one message: "I like the effect of an army of USCW Playmobil figures" ... It doesn't bring me the message "I like Playmobil" (all right, I only saw one picture, I'm talking about what I saw).

Gustavo, I think you make a very important point! When someone is truly inspired to create something and truly enjoys the process, that has to be part of the "definition" of art, too. Maybe we can identify a true artist by the way he or she would answer this question: "Would you be compelled to do whatever it is that you do even if there was no material reward for it?" Or, for Playmobil artists, the question would be, "Are you compelled to do this even though it's costing you a fortune, your friends think you're weird (if you even dare to tell them) and your family thinks you're crazy?" We already know the answer! :klickygrin:

- Anne
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on June 14, 2008, 18:02:49: Quote from: playmofire on June 09, 2008, 20:22:33
... the thought came to me that these stories in many ways are about what happens at night when the owners of the Playmobil are in bed!

As I was putting some effort in organizing the boxes, today, I thought with myself that playing (of a child), and hobbies are lonely activities. (A child doesn't always play alone, but there are lonely plays ...)

Art and craft is something that someone does alone, too.

Maybe art has to do with playing, and craft with a hobby ... There's no creativity in craft or hobby (if there is, it's the non individual part of creativity (...)), while in playing and in making art, there's something of originallity and of a personal touch.

To ask, therefore, what's best: art or craft?, would be like asking what's best: playing or putting time in a hobby? ... Only modalities of activity based on something common. (A child plays with a toy, and many hobbies are based on toys. For example.)

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Customizer on June 14, 2008, 20:41:32: Hi Playmofriends,

interesting Thread, i think i must read first all if i find a little time but here some Playmo ART.

ENJOY !

ARTIST: Danielle Rizzolo

world greets

Andi
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Timotheos on June 15, 2008, 02:18:51: Quote from: Gustavo on June 14, 2008, 18:02:49

As I was putting some effort in organizing the boxes, today, I thought with myself that playing (of a child), and hobbies are lonely activities. (A child doesn't always play alone, but there are lonely plays ...)

Art and craft is something that someone does alone, too.

Quote from: Gustavo on June 14, 2008, 18:02:49
Maybe art has to do with playing, and craft with a hobby ... There's no creativity in craft or hobby (if there is, it's the non individual part of creativity (...))

Hi Gus, the above maybe indicates a misunderstanding of the english words "craft" and "hobby".
Hobby is a pursuit one follows for personal enjoyment, and can be anything.
A craft means a lot of things, and often implies skill and ingenuity on the part of the doer ("crafty").

Quote from: Gustavo on June 14, 2008, 18:02:49
Art and craft is something that someone does alone, too.

Heh, there's another activity one does alone that most Playmobil collectors are probably intimately familiar with.

I'd argue that this unnamed solitary diversion is conceptually similar to what often gets called art nowadays.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Sylvia on June 23, 2008, 08:11:58: Quote from: Customizer on June 14, 2008, 20:41:32

interesting Thread, i think i must read first all if i find a little time but here some Playmo ART.

ENJOY !

ARTIST: Danielle Rizzolo

Oh!!
Danielle's paintings are exquisite! :inlove:
I hadn't ever seen those before so thank you very much, Andi. :*)

Co-incidentally, I just happened across a topic you created quite a long time ago about another Playmo-artist.
It is definitely worth revisiting:

http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=980.0 (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=980.0)

From the URLs of the embedded pics I discovered that the artwork comes from this website (http://olivier.nourisson.free.fr/). :)
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on June 24, 2008, 02:40:53: In a way, I think that we're talking about the graphic arts here, painting, photography ... Maybe because many of our activities with Playmobil (most (that can be considered to reach art (...))) are related to photography -- with the exception of the artists (& designers) who play (couldn't resist ;D ) with the concept of Hans Beck's toy ...

:toot:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on June 24, 2008, 02:46:36: Quote from: Sylvia on June 23, 2008, 08:11:58
Co-incidentally, I just happened across a topic you created quite a long time ago about another Playmo-artist.
It is definitely worth revisiting:

http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=980.0 (http://www.playmofriends.com/forum/index.php?topic=980.0)

From the URLs of the embedded pics I discovered that the artwork comes from this website (http://olivier.nourisson.free.fr/). :)

Wonderful "Biography of an artist" :D
Thanks, Syl!

Great coincidence ... At hand, I should say :)

blackhair
G.
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Gustavo on June 27, 2008, 00:33:12: Quote from: Gustavo on June 24, 2008, 02:40:53

In a way, I think that we're talking about the graphic arts here, painting, photography ...

I have another question:

What is making art with Playmobil?
Is it customizing? Is it making good funny/original pictures?

It's easy to achieve good esthetic effect with the klickies (even with a very bad camera), because THEY are very photogenic, but I don't know (& don't think) if this is art already, maybe not rather than simple playing time ...

Maybe not all customizing can be considered as art (but simply as customizing (...)), but there are a few interesting works in customizing that make a guy to have his doubts and then, I think, comes the moment to use the definition "what is art?", so as to divide things. (Maybe.)

(Or maybe things can't be divided at all ... But I think you know what I mean.)

There's more to say,
there's a lot I've been thinking,
but I'd like to hear other ideas, so, for now ...

G.
:blackhair:
Title: Re: Can someone do art with Playmobil? & What is art?
Post by: Martin Milner on June 30, 2008, 15:53:15: Quote from: Timotheos on June 15, 2008, 02:18:51
Hi Gus, the above maybe indicates a misunderstanding of the english words "craft" and "hobby".
Hobby is a pursuit one follows for personal enjoyment, and can be anything.
A craft means a lot of things, and often implies skill and ingenuity on the part of the doer ("crafty").

We also have the option of the subtle distinction in English between a hobby and a pastime.

Playing a computer game, watching TV or reading a book is a pastime, but none of these could be described as a craft, though some computer games do require the development of skills to complete successfully.

Making stuffed toys is a hobby, and is also a craft.

If my wife makes a stuffed teddy bear, using a pattern from a book, is she being creative, or merely re-creating something that someone else put the design work into? After she's made a dozen, is she still being creative?

Now what if she uses different materials to those specified in the pattern?

What if she makes the materials from scratch, e.g. spinning the wool from raw fleece before knitting with it?

What if she alters the pattern, to make a cat instead of a bear?

I play violin as a hobby and a pastime. It requires skill, but there's nothing to show at the end, so is it a craft? Not according to the Wikipedia definition.